Which Old School Penn Reel Would You Modify?

Started by Crab Pot, September 09, 2022, 11:47:30 PM

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Crab Pot

I like the old school side plates.

They'll stay on.
Buy it nice or buy it twice.

Maxed Out

  Bone stock Penn reels have produced more IGFA world records than all other reels combined.

 Aftermarket conversions are still a Penn reel in my mind. They are based on the same basic design from Otto Henze, the founder of Penn reels.

 "If you want my Penn 99 you'll hafta pry it from my cold dead hands"
We Must Never Forget Our Veterans....God Bless Them All !!

foakes

Thanks to Tom, Randy, and Ted —-

I have a few to build out right now —- just haven't had the spare time.  (4) different colored Jigmasters with Tom's sideplates, one of Tom's dark blue custom Squidders, and a 20/0 from Randy & Tom with custom sideplates, frame, spool, and more.

However, if there was one reel I deemed very worthwhile to upgrade without breaking the bank —- it would be a Jigmaster that has been 99'd.

This would be the size between a 500 and a 501, 99 aluminum spool, 1:4 gears, quick take-apart, 5 stack CF's with SS discs and Cal's greased, a Tib frame, power crank, an SS sleeve, and Newell Delrin speed bearings, CF or Delrin under-gear washer.

These are serious "fishers" —- and I have done hundreds of these for folks when I was doing Conventionals.  Mostly for knowing anglers fishing SoCal offshore or Mexico long-rangers.

These are about the most economical and dependable reels for offshore fishing.  Set up like this, they will handle most anything.

Stock plates, and mostly stock guts except for the gear sleeve.

$350 to $500 can be spent on a Jigmaster custom upgrade —- but all that is really needed is the above description.

This is a basic upgrade without losing the nostalgia and history of a stock Penn.

Best, Fred
The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

Ron Jones

I have (and love) that exact reel with the exception of 5:1 Newell gears and a 5 stack drag. I have caught a bunch of yellowtail on that reel and a few different rods. With braid, the 501 might make more sense, but I have found that 300 yards of braid topped with the rest of a 99 spool of 40# mono lasts a long time on a trip, and is just a nice thing to use.

The Man
Ronald Jones
To those who have gone to sea and returned and to those who have gone to sea and will never return
"

thorhammer

Depends on what you will do with it as to what capability you are looking to get. Casting for distance I'd say a Cortez Classic 501...5:1 SS gears etc., will give plenty of power and speed, and I like Tom's cut down chassis for slinging- it's almost Squidder diameter but twice as fast and powerful. That said I have some matched sets fully rodded from Squidder to 9/0, and tho I don't use the electric 9/0 (one of a kind) it's in the top few of favorite reels. Bottom bouncing, prolly 113H.

JohnIMG_1584.JPGted stand 1.JPGshelf 1.JPGold phone 396.JPG   

Keta

For casting I'd go with a 501N, 501 or 99 width 500.  For bottom fish a 113HN or better still a 349H.  Parts for the 349 will be harder to find though.
Hi, my name is Lee and I have a fishing gear problem.

I have all of the answers, yup, no, maybe.

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
Mark Twain

Shellbelly

Thorhammer, how in the world can you watch TV with all that underneath it? ;D

You must have "lizard eyes"!
"Little boy,  you can get glad in the same pants you just got mad in."  (My Momma)
"You shot it boy, you're gonna clean it and eat it".  (My Dad)

Wompus Cat

Quote from: Shellbelly on September 12, 2022, 04:58:23 PMThorhammer, how in the world can you watch TV with all that underneath it? ;D

You must have "lizard eyes"!

First count I got 111 or 112  but second count got only 105 Reels


Now I got LIZZARD  EYES


If a Grass Hopper Carried a Shotgun then the Birds wouldn't MESS with Him

thorhammer

That's funny...not sure, I've added some since that pic, but I think there were about 120 on there at one point. That's the shop shelf, so mostly my beer thieving neighbors in the recliner watching a fishing show or Letterkenny while I'm on the bench fixing crap; if they can't focus it's on them  :d

jurelometer

99 sized is a good route to go, especially if you want room  to cast all mono. The high speed (505/506) is not  as strong as the standard, but you will have the same issue if you put high speed gears in a 509/501.

Going to a narrow kit decreases the spool diameter to width ratio to something less optimal for casting.  Going down to a 99 width is not a big deal, but going more narrow than that starts to move the reel to be more optimized for dropping vs. casting. 

A couple things to consider if going the full kit route:

The fundamental weak point for these reels is the relatively thin post peened to the bridge plate that supports the gear sleeve, which is essentially the shaft for the main gear.  Under sufficient load, the post/shaft will get angled out of alignment resulting in a dog or gear failure, most often when winding.  The customizations do not improve this risk in any substantial way, and some increase the risk - such as higher gear ratios(resulting in shallower gear teeth), and longer handle arms.

While the customizations do improve the ability to support somewhat higher drag settings, the improvements for winding under load are more minimal, mostly preventing the handle from rounding off the top of the gear sleeve.   Going to a "magnum" style kit gets you the bride plate/larger gear post of the next model up in size, but it will also affect the gear ratios available,  The kits with ball bearings for the spindle cast very well.

Occasionally, folks who have built out these reels have been disappointed.  Not because the reels were not a nice chunk of good looking, well made machinery, but because they had expected more performance for the investment. The smaller the reel, the more that these issues tend to pop up.  Once you get up to the 113H, you get you get a pretty large gear sleeve post and a pretty robust platform, but is also a bit large reel for casting, and you can get a pretty decent modern two speed for the same price or less than a full kitted 113H for trolling/dropping/live baiting.

These  custom kitted reels  also tend to be a bit more on the high maintenance side, due to the increased corrosion potential, primarily from the stainless screws and internal parts contacting the aluminum sideplates.

I don't think that there is anything wrong with hot rodding up an old Penn reel. And as long as you know that you are building a hot rod, you may find this a worthwhile experience.  For many people, hotrodding a'57 Chevy is a worthwhile experience.  But in the end, it is still a '57 Chevy, and not a Ferrari, an F150, or for that matter, even a Honda Civic.  Which is not a problem if you wanted to build out a 57 Chevy, and not trying to turn it into something that it is not.

Not trying to  talk anybody out of this.  More of a an alternate view for some of our newer members.  Pretty clear that the OP understands the point of this exercise.

Lots of threads on the technical issues I mentioned, but if there is a specific question or challenge on any point, feel free to respond.


-J

JasonGotaProblem

Dave that was an excellent post.

The 505-506 isn't as strong huh? Is that just the shallower teeth or some other structural aspect? (Separate from the bearings vs bushings thing) as a new owner of a 506, I'm very curious.
Any machine is a smoke machine if you use it wrong enough.

Gfish

The only thing I've heard on the HS Jigmasters; is that the smaller main gear teeth COULD strip. Anyone with experience of this ?

Everything you noted Dave is true based on my experience and limited thinking, with about 7 modded Penn conventionals, that I have. Your technical realism knows no bounds, even if it WRECKS EVERYTHING for me! Ha! kiddin dude🤪. Good stuff. After a possible mod to the bridge plate, with a fatter gear sleeve stud/sleeve, what would be the next weak link in one of these? The dogs?
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

jurelometer

Thanks for the kind words guys.  I typed up two replies prior and deleted because I did not want to poop on the well loved and very high quality custom parts out there.  Some of you folks  have my minor contribution of stainless stars that I made for awhile. I just want to keep the facts straight on the potential performance. 


I still think now and then about putting my old 505 Accurate kit back together.  It was such a joy to cast.   The new kits are probably even nicer.


Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on September 12, 2022, 08:48:05 PMDave that was an excellent post.

The 505-506 isn't as strong huh? Is that just the shallower teeth or some other structural aspect? (Separate from the bearings vs bushings thing) as a new owner of a 506, I'm very curious.

Yep, just the teeth.  That is it.  To change gear ratio you have to change the pitch circle ratio.  Penn squeezed out a  tiny bit more  center distance on the bridge (all that they could fit in the same sideplate diameter). But not enough.   So the pinion has to get smaller.  But since the pinion has a big hole in the center for  the  spindle, no room to make a smaller pinion with the same tooth size.  Shrinking the tooth size bought them enough space to grow/shrink the main/pinion pitch circles to claim something sort of close to 5:1.

It is not that small teeth can't be strong enough, it is just that load gets  transferred to the tooth corners sooner than with big teeth when the shafts get out of alignment.

If you get a 500/501 and put high speed gears on it you will have the same problem. While switching to harder materials helps a little, it doesn't compensate enough for running a gear on the corner of its teeth.

Quote from: Gfish on September 12, 2022, 09:13:53 PMThe only thing I've heard on the HS Jigmasters; is that the smaller main gear teeth COULD strip. Anyone with experience of this ?


Uh... me.  Little bits of bronze on the bottom in a couple spots in Baja. :).

 To be fair,  I ran a clean dry stack  for max friction and tightened the drag with a pair of pliers - that is what we did back in the day for yellowtail on a jigmaster. 

The standard Jigmaster was a solid reel fished within it's intended limits.  But I have heard as well that the HS model did  have a bit of a reputation for gear wear.

QuoteEverything you noted Dave is true based on my experience and limited thinking, with about 7 modded Penn conventionals, that I have. Your technical realism knows no bounds, even if it WRECKS EVERYTHING for me! Ha! kiddin dude🤪. Good stuff. After a possible mod to the bridge plate, with a fatter gear sleeve stud/sleeve, what would be the next weak link in one of these? The dogs?

I discussed this with Sal for a bit.  IMHO, not enough room to fatten the post diameter much, and it still ends up peened on one side to a thin bridge plate.  Sal tried to make a spacer with a minimal gap on ID  and OD  that sort of acted like a bearing.  I have a reel that he did for me that way.  Problem is that the sideplate hole has to act as a bearing surface,  And it is not shaped properly.  Sal could get close enough that he though it helped, but each reel was an individual, time consuming effort, and testing is destructive.

My take is that you need to support both ends of a strong main shaft, which means replacing the sleeve/post with a solid shaft with bearings (plain and/or ball) on the bridge and sideplate.  Which means a new bridge and a new sideplate as well.  The ratchet could now be larger and the dog shaft is a screw that goes from the sideplate to the bridge - not a post peened into the bridge plate.  Combined with all the other parts, we have basically put a 500 spool on a new reel.  But no longer staying within the goal of seeing how far we can take a Penn reel, and if we really want something pretty close to that design, just buy a soulless Shimano TLD star on the auction site.  Used to be able to get them used for about 30 $USD before Alan stared talking them up :)


I have tried to drum up some interest in harnessing our collective skills to  design and build our own simpler/better reel, but so far no interest.

-J

Crab Pot

That explosion you heard, if you live close to Citrus Heights, was my head.

I will have to reread Dave's post a couple dozen times to wrap my head around half of it being the less-than-novice I am.

Back to the 99 or 505...I think I'll get one of each.  :d
Buy it nice or buy it twice.

Shellbelly

Quote from: Crab Pot on September 17, 2022, 12:00:21 AMThat explosion you heard, if you live close to Citrus Heights, was my head.

...and all the jigmasters that have been modded beyond their limits.  The technical assessments in this thread "speak without saying" and quite respectfully so.  Delicate subject, but paper covers rock...iffn you knows what I mean.
"Little boy,  you can get glad in the same pants you just got mad in."  (My Momma)
"You shot it boy, you're gonna clean it and eat it".  (My Dad)