Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Hello everyone, I have a small collection of graphite framed Shimano TLD star drags. I started buying them after reading an old thread on this site about what gear to leave to a panga fisherman who was guiding for a member.  I have three TLD 15/30s, one triton star drag 3 gt, one TLD 20/40, one speedmaster IV, one 100 GT speedmaster, and one speedmaster tsm II fs (which actually has an aluminum cage and graphite side plates).   
 
I have always wondered though if the graphite frames will degrade over time.  My question is if that is a valid concern.  What is the "graphite" made of, how durable is it, will it become brittle over the decades or somehow break down chemically?  Is it less likely to survive the years compared to say a aluminum framed reel (example - my beloved daiwa sealines, Tiburon framed Penn senators)? 

Any feedback on this will be appreciated. 

Thanks,  Chip

These "graphite" reel body parts are made from Nylon (probably Nylon 6/6) with chopped carbon fibers blended in to make the material stiffer.  Some reels use a bit more fiber than others.  The TLDs are are the rigid side, so maybe around 20% fiber.  I have a couple Daiwas that seem a bit more flexy.  Rigidity makes for less flexing, but is more brittle.  No free lunch in materials science.

Nylon will degrade when exposed to UV light, but it otherwise quite durable over time.  These reel parts are loaded up with carbon black, which greatly helps to minimize UV penetration. 

You will often see a grayish chalky surface on older graphite reels that have been out in the sun a lot.  This is UV damaged nylon.  With all that carbon black, UV light doesn't penetrate easily, so the damage is usually just on the outside facing surfaces, and is only cosmetic. 

Folk put "rejuvenating" products on UV damaged plastics (including nylon), which does nothing to reverse the damage to the molecular structure, but might mask some of the discoloration and maybe provide some temporary UV protection.

Mostly beecause of the corrosion risk for aluminum in saltwater, I actually prefer graphite body parts (frames and especially sideplates). I have one reel (a Newell) with a graphite spool which is a fabulous caster by virtue of being much lighter than the aluminum spools, although graphite spools can be a bit risky if they are loaded up with mono instead of braid. And graphite reels are usually significantly lighter - check out the weight changes when a reel is "upgraded" to all aluminum aftermarket parts.

Once the model of reel gets too wide and/or the drag requirements get too large, graphite starts to loose out to aluminum. It is either going too flex too much or fracture.  This is why we see some frame failures in the old wider versions of the TLD 50 lever drags (LRS), but not in the TLD 20s.

Haven't hear of a frame failure on a TLD 15/30 star.  I fish them with impunity with drag up to 20 lbs.  I am not sure that I would be comfortable going too far past 20, but mostly because of how the foot is riveted to the frame.  Frame to foot is where load gets concentrated, and there isn't a great way to make a strong attachment going from Nylon to stainless on any of these reels.   On most graphite reels, the clamp attachment is to the foot, so a clamp does not further distribute the load off of the rivets.

-J

The Boss' 320GTi tutorial covers graphite pretty well. He agrees with the 20# limit, and that's all I really want to pull against.

It might seem that lighter colored reels get less of the surface degradation, but wipe an old one down with alcohol and you'll see it, the grey just matches the frame better!

I fish a Grand Wave Z 20 wide a lot, caught 30# yellowtail and 25# albacore with it, and never had a concern. In it's former life, it lived in the open rod holder of a boat in San Diego for years, it would take a long long time for UV degradation to hurt a TLD.

The Man

"Graphite" really means plastic.  But if used to their original design parameters (ie. not spooled with heavy braid and fished with heavy drag settings) something else will probably give out before the frames do.  If something does break, most likely through abuse (eg. angler falling and hitting a reel against the boat) it'll still likely be after the reel has given enough service you'll not be too bothered about grabbing another off Ebay - and the introduction of "better" reels has driven prices down quite a lot.

Admittedly aluminium framed reels should, when it comes down to it, be harder to kill - but star drag Sealines can also be had quite cheaply too these days. 

Quote from: jurelometer on November 01, 2024, 08:58:11 PMI have one reel (a Newell) with a graphite spool which is a fabulous caster by virtue of being much lighter than the aluminum spools, although graphite spools can be a bit risky if they are loaded yup with mono instead of braid.

I believe you've spoken of this before, a 220? I just got one recently from a very kind member. Assuming braid use, as always, is the graphite spool the limiting factor on this reel? Seems otherwise pretty stout.

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 01, 2024, 11:40:32 PM

Quote from: jurelometer on November 01, 2024, 08:58:11 PMI have one reel (a Newell) with a graphite spool which is a fabulous caster by virtue of being much lighter than the aluminum spools, although graphite spools can be a bit risky if they are loaded yup with mono instead of braid.

I believe you've spoken of this before, a 220? I just got one recently from a very kind member. Assuming braid use, as always, is the graphite spool the limiting factor on this reel? Seems otherwise pretty stout.

I lurve that reel.  I should make a tribute site to it   Along with my Abel Supers, it is the only reel that gets me kinda tingly.

The innards are similar in size and durability to a Jigmaster, but in a smaller form factor, about like a narrow Squidder.  The handle junction is better designed than the classic Penns so it is not the first thing to fail.  The base is built up for the rod clamp attachment, separate from the foot, so if you use the clamp, it uses the reel seat itself to reinforce the frame, making the who assembly stronger and more rigid.  Not rocket surgery, but modern reels still don't do this.

Since it is still a gear sleeve design, gear shredding when winding under load (causing axial load from turning the helical gears) is probably the first point of failure.  If you lay off the heavy winding, the next point of failure is probably a bent spindle.  I wouldn't expect the spool to blow up if loaded with braid.  braid just doesn't stretch that much.

Quote from: Ron Jones on November 01, 2024, 09:23:29 PMIt might seem that lighter colored reels get less of the surface degradation, but wipe an old one down with alcohol and you'll see it, the grey just matches the frame better!

The Man

Yep. Black absorbs the UV waves better, converting to heat.  That is why most plastic stuff intended for outdoor use is black. Carbon black is a very good and cheap UV protector.

-J

OK!  Thanks for the excellent info on the nylon used and why the reels are black.  I had never considered it to be protective against UV damage.

Thanks all,
Chip

Here's the weak point on most graphite frames. This was a Shimano TLD 50 if memory serves. This was one of the boat reels so no telling how many hours on it before it failed. We had a decent Marlin on when it popped. Had to hand line it in for the release.

That's convincing. 

That looks like heavy line, 80 lb or heavier.  There's a reason why "50" is printed in big letters on top of that reel. ..

Quote from: Patudo on November 03, 2024, 11:48:41 AMThat looks like heavy line, 80 lb or heavier.  There's a reason why "50" is printed in big letters on top of that reel. ..

Yeah, but you hope for less dangerous failure if you go over the limit.

Frame twisting on the foot is definitely the mechanical cause of failure, but the root cause is that they try to make these graphite reels look similar to machined aluminum instead of designing for the material they are actually made out of - which comes back to bite them on the largest models when they are pushed too hard.

But a properly designed graphite big game reel would look too different,  and we probably wouldn't buy them. 

A plastic can be the superior material choice if used properly in the right situation.  That is why we see a lot of it used in sports and racing, and not just in inexpensive consumer products.  I wouldn't want a polyethylene construction crane, but I wouldn't want a steel kayak either.  Aluminum is not a universally superior material for all types of reels for all situations.

-J

They could embed metal or carbon fiber in the foot and stand.  I'm not sure graphite powder and resin alone could ever be strong enough without increasing the mass to the point where a special reel seat is required on the rod.

Quote from: oc1 on November 04, 2024, 04:42:41 AMThey could embed metal or carbon fiber in the foot and stand.  I'm not sure graphite powder and resin alone could ever be strong enough without increasing the mass to the point where a special reel seat is required on the rod.

If you will forgive me, a minor nit that turns out to be important for this discussion:

It is not graphite powder and resin, it is an injection molded blend of chopped carbon fibers and a melted thermoplastic (Nylon).  With injection molding of a hot liquified plastic, the wall thickness has to be consistent and you also should not imbed a big chunk of metal with different thermal expansion characteristics, as the part can  crack and split.

For larger reels, the foot has to be metal to be thin enough to fit in the seat hoods and still be strong enough.  Which means it will have to attached after molding.  But a strong foot is only needed if there is bearing the pulling and twisting load.  A properly designed clamp mount can do a much better job and fit on any cylindrical reel seat.

 With a proper frame to clamp design, the foot does very little load bearing. But this won't look as much like an aluminum frame, making it harder to sell to us rubes.

-J

OK.  Chopped fiber, not powder.  As Wilmar insinuates, graphite in the fishing arena is not really graphite anyway.  Graphite is the stuff in your pencil.  Your graphite fishing rod or reel is made of carbon fiber.

Fron the fracture picture above, you can tell that there are no fibers of appreciable length involved.  If it was laid-up with carbon fiber cloth or tow instead of powder it could be made strong enough without increasing weight or mass. 

Reinforcing polymers with metal is a common practice, even in aviation and aerospace stuff.  They use metal mesh or strand; not big chunks of metal plate.

Are there any reel components being made of "real" carbon fiber?

That's not to say the shredded carbon in graphite is imaginary. But are there any components being made from epoxy-impregnated sheets of carbon that get vacuum molded or press-molded?