Reel Repair by Alan Tani

I redid the test, same rod, same reel.  I started with my topshot attachment at the reel.
Straight pull 20.5#, rod pull at about 45° 23.25#.  A tested 4 times each letting the reel "settle" for 5 minutes between pulls and alternating straight and rod.  All 4 tests were +- a 1/4 pound of each other.

I am putting a reel on a all roller rod next.

The outdoor demo in the vid was like watching some carney snake oil stuff.

Speed of pull was obviously different.

Adding friction (drag) of guides.....adds drag(.)

Progressive vs. linear.  How much money and research has been spent to get closer to linear?  How linear can a drag get.

Quote from: Keta on Today at 02:13:19 PMI re did the test, same rod, same reel.  I started with my topshot attachment at the reel.
Straight pull 20.5#, rod pull at about 45° 23.25#.  A tested 4 times each letting the reel "settle" for 5 minutes between pulls and alternating straight and rod.  All 4 tests were +- a 1/4 pound of each other.

I am putting a reel on a all roller rod next.

Good stuff Lee. Thanks. Look forward to seeing if the rollers make much difference.

yeah, straight pull here as well.  now off to more important things.  i have a kitchen to clean....   

    Me thinks in the near future , there will be microprocessor drag control built into the reels with touch screen  to program the desired  drag .  No more scaling needed .      As of now I am the microprocessor .

The 6.25' AR rod results were similar but it is a lot easier pulling 20# with.

Quote from: Keta on Today at 04:14:09 PMThe 6.25' AR rod results were similar but it is a lot easier pulling 20# with.

That makes sense.  Easier from the shorter lever (rod length).   No change in drag because the coefficient of friction for UHMWPE (braid material) on polished ceramic insert material is crazy low, and if you were actually adding a couple pounds of load from friction, it  would show as substantial wear on the line if it didn't break outright.

Yep, No friction with rollers and practically no friction with ceramic guides.

I am pretty convinced that getting different results on straight pull vs. bent rod is an artifact of static (startup) drag testing. The static load is applied very differently in these two methods, and some of the static load turns into stored energy on the bent rod, and will not be observed using a kinetic  (running after startup) drag test.

I have yet to see an explanation of why the bent rod would make a difference otherwise. But I have provided an explanation  of why it would not.

Unlike the video where they just yank on some line with a scale while swinging a rod and call it "scientific", a halfway decent scientific approach requires both controlled testing and a plausible explanation of why the observed results are happening that is consistent with known science (in this case Physics, and more specifically Tribology).


I am not criticizing Lee's tests. He is not hanging "scientific" on his observations.  He has provided us with some useful data.  The rest of the scientific work has yet to be done.  And frankly, I don't think it is worth doing. But if somebody wants to defend that rod angle makes a difference on ongoing drag, feel free to pick up from here.


One other point is that drag is just one part of managing the load on that big tuna.  There is also the amount of load applied when the fish is not taking line.  I think this is probably where we find the biggest difference between the angler who struggles on a big tuna for a couple hours and the one who has it at the rail in under 20 minutes. 

Like almost all fish species, tuna don't have a reverse, plus they  have less endurance  for turning than straight line swimming.  Keeping its head pointed toward you as much of the time as possible  will wear out the fish much faster than if you keep letting in turn around. That takes consistent winding load, the higher the better.

For awhile, I was playing with the idea of making a big game rod butt with a reel seat that could slide a very short distance do it could punch against a load sensor.  Stick some batteries in there and a transmitter, make or tweak some software, and now we could record the load that the angler was applying to a fish throughout the fight, and could compare the histograms of various  anglers.  This would help identify what the guys who are landing big fish quickly are specifically doing differently.  But I think we already know most of it.

It could probably be done for under $2000 USD, maybe a lot less.  The interesting part was figuring  out roughly how to do it.  The less interesting part was spending the money and time to build it, recruiting anglers willing to try it with their valuable cow tuna fishing opportunities, training, etc.  But if somebody else wants to run with it, I am willing to look at it some more.

-J

Here is a test to further confuse ya .  Take a weight and scale it . "I have 2.5 pounds with a digital scale  "  Now run a line down the guides of your stick , Tiegh  the weight and put a loop on the string at ,or near the reel seat so you can hook the scale to it . lift the weight flat stick and note the weight .  Now pick the stick to 80-85 degrees and note the weight . Why does it vary so much?

Quote from: Keta on Today at 12:57:41 PM"What is more strenuous for the fisherman; pointing the rod at the fish or holding the rod up at a 45 degree angle?"

Watch a person using slow pitch gear fight a larger fish, they use the reels power and not so much the rod.

Once a fish is hooked there is a lot of variables to deal with, set your drag at 1/4 to 1/3 of the rods rating (I do 1/3) and forget about it.  Use the drag lever to adjust the drag and the rod to keep tension on the fish.  The rod (and the rail/fulcrum)  and higher drag comes in play more when a larger tuna is in it's death spiral and the fight becomes more vertical. 

Obsessing over drag setting, once the baseline is set, is really a waste of time. 

]
YES!    This should be the main takeaway from this thread!

QuoteAs our resident engineer said above, the rod is a lever and the fulcrum changes all of the time, a softer rod bends more and reduces the mechanical advantage but they will allow a fish to more easily turn and go the wrong way. A shorter rod has advantages but on a LR boat a longer rod, 7.5-8.5 feet not 9-10 feet, is a better choice.

When you are railing the rod, you are creating a class 1 lever (seesaw style) the fulcrum won't change unless you reposition the rod.

When you are using the typical  fish fighting style with the butt on your hip or in a belt, you have  a class 3 lever (crane style).  Fulcrum won't change here either.     But if you mean that the leverage  will be changing constantly, I am in 100%  agreement.



There are a couple variables specific to fishing to keep in mind:   First is that as the rod bends, it decreases  the lever length.  Second, unlike  the seesaw or crane,  as you change the rod angle to point more toward the fish, the load angle changes in your favor, further decreasing the effective lever length.  This is why lower rod angles are more efficient.  There are some relatively simple formulas that you can plug your measurements into and find out what the load multiplier is for your specific gear at a given angle.

When you are fighting with a class three lever (but on your hip or belt), where you locate your effort (lifting hand) on the rod makes a huge difference.  Reaching up as far as you can without screwing up the ergonomics  allows you to minimize the leverage thst the fish has against you. If  you are railing a rod, that effort point should be as close to the butt as possible.

Better fishing through science!

-J

Yup x all.

To be "scientific" it would take a variable speed motor and a tachometer,  it is not worth the effort and $. 

Bottom line, set your drag at 1/4-1/3 (I do 1/3) of the rod rating and fish. 

Quote from: oldmanjoe on Today at 06:03:49 PMHere is a test to further confuse ya .  Take a weight and scale it . "I have 2.5 pounds with a digital scale  "  Now run a line down the guides of your stick , Tiegh  the weight and put a loop on the string at ,or near the reel seat so you can hook the scale to it . lift the weight flat stick and note the weight .  Now pick the stick to 80-85 degrees and note the weight . Why does it vary so much?

If I understand your test correctly, your question is answered in reply #23.  You are measuring the effect of leverage.   
On the main topic, leverage will not affect the drag setting vs measurement when the fish is continuously taking line.

-J

Quote from: jurelometer on Today at 06:33:57 PM

Quote from: oldmanjoe on Today at 06:03:49 PMHere is a test to further confuse ya .  Take a weight and scale it . "I have 2.5 pounds with a digital scale  "  Now run a line down the guides of your stick , Tiegh  the weight and put a loop on the string at ,or near the reel seat so you can hook the scale to it . lift the weight flat stick and note the weight .  Now pick the stick to 80-85 degrees and note the weight . Why does it vary so much?

If I understand your test correctly, your question is answered in reply #23.  You are measuring the effect of leverage. 
On the main topic, leverage will not affect the drag setting vs measurement when the fish is continuously taking line.

-J

How does this lever work ?  flat stick  suspended weight is now 1.85 pounds .  Stick at 85 ish degrees the weight is now less than a pound ?