Setting Drag To Another Level-Torque Method

[BassMatt]

Well, I could not stop on my last post, so I did another experiment.
This time I tried a Shimano Tekota 700 with a Craftsman 944593 Torque wrench with a range of 25-250 in/lbs (regular torque wrench).I used a 13mm socket for the handle nut.

Here are the results:
Torque setting in/lb- slow constant drag pull weight
70-19
85-22
100-25

As predicted from the last post the multiplier is around 4 and yielding the predicted results on the saltwater reels. It seems like though anything over 25 pounds of drag would be hard to set. Trying to hold the spool and twisting the wrench at 100 in/lbs was tuff. I will have to think of a way to restrain it for higher settings, although the reel appeared to be maxing out on drag at that setting.
Their seems to be a pattern here, I think my next thing to do is create a chart with more results with a range of 10 to a 100 in/lbs.
Fast and easy system once you have the settings down.

[Keta]

Interesting stuff.

Can you go heavier on the braid to avoid breaking it?   The lightest Spectra I like to use is 20lb with 6-12lb mono or Fluro topshots for kokanee and steelhead and prefer 40lb. 


My smallest torque wrench is much too big at 50 foot pounds and I have one that will do 250lbs.

[BassMatt]

Keta

I like to use the lightest line I can get away with a lower drag setting. I do a lot of casting. The lighter the line, the less chance I will backlash or get line tangles, which takes time out of the day, plus it's frustrating. I have tried heavier braids before, but out of all the lines I have used, they get too spongy after getting wet and get heavy on the larger sizes.

I think most of my past line failures I had were from both too much drag and knot strengths. I like to tie on Fluro leaders and I think now I have found a knot combination that's easiest to tie and consistent (Uni-to Uni) and a Palomar at the lure. A knot not tied right can greatly reduce the line %.

In the past on my drag setting, I just use to guess at it based on feel and using the line scale a few times, but that was too much hassle. Plus, reading the scale from 4 to 7 feet away and trying to average the number was a tossup or guess. I knew there had to be a better way to set the drag the same every time. It's a piece of the system that's just as important as the line weights and knots you tie that you should not have to guess at.

50 ft/ lb is pretty big. That's 600 in/lbs for drag weight of about 150 pounds. 

[Keta]

50 ft/ lb is pretty big. That's 600 in/lbs for drag weight of about 150 pounds. 

I cast constantly when steelhead fishing and don't notice problems.  Probably differences in the braid, I use uncoated white JB Line One. 

I have enough trouble staying in the boat using 28-35 pounds, I'd be water skying with 150lbs of drag.

My smallest and largest reels

[BassMatt]

That's what you call a diversified angler (those two reels must be really old 20's or 30's?)

After thinking this more (too obsessive at this point) I found some interesting equipment that reads the line pull a little differently than a fish scale for my next comparison. I should get it soon and will test and report some other mind boggling ideas about drag if I predict. More details to come latter.

Now if I can just figure out how to set a spinning reel and preset spool tension knobs like above. If I do that though I think it might take all the fun out of fishing.....naaa never

I really like this site and have been looking at it for over two years. A lot of good info with regards to optimizing fishing reels. This is my first post ever and cannot believe the interest. I have some other things and methods on reel repair I have come up with or discovered that I would like to share on future posts. Right now my focus is the torque method. I would like to finish this topic with information we can all use and at the same time introduce comments and ideas from others.

[BassMatt]

I went ahead and made a procedure write up on to do this torque method with more detail and illustration. I'm still working on the drag weight table conversion and should have that out next week. Please let me know if you have any questions. Thanks for all the input and posts that has made me take a closer look at this process.
Matt Marquis

[Dominick]

Matt:  Way cool PDF file and illustrations.  I have a torque wrench somewhere.  I want to try it.  You have a unique concept.  Dominick

[day0ne]

I tried line scales in the beginning and did not like the time it took to for the setup, trying to read the average force when the drag slipped, while apply force. To me it was just guessing at the setting. Using the wrench, it takes no time, applies the same setting every time and you don't even need line on the spool to set it.

Use a scale with a "tell-tale" on it. It makes it simple. It will tell you right where the drag slipped. In other words, use a drag scale

[BassMatt]

Thanks Dominick for the compliment.  I appreciate your comments. I wish you or someone else would test it out to see. I figure if I can super tune my reels and shim out all the loose tolerances (0.002 to 0.005 inches) on a prime tool that separates me from the fish,....... I can fine tune my drag settings.

This concept is not for everybody and quite a new idea that will have to gain acceptance. I thought that at first this idea was a long shot of success, but after using it for over a year it has changed my fishing performance with quick tugging fish. I know and am confident that my reels are set the same way every time I go fishing and that un-foreseen line abrasion and weakened knots don't scare me (to a certain level) from landing fish. You have to try it a few times and then you're "hooked".

Still working on those tables..........I have two methods I'm working on; mathematical and by test results. Then I can compare the two. The original post I did is only part of the math puzzle (it was my initial logic of calculating the setting when I was trying to figure this all out), but sense then I figured out the other pieces I was missing to make any "reel" sense out of this. I'm getting closer though.

[BassMatt]

Some other thoughts, ideas, and intial findings on low profile casters for comment.

Here is another way of looking at this

The drag is nothing more than a slipping clutch. The drag screw adjustment is like a spring in the clutch and keeps a constant pressure (when you tighten or loosen the setting) on the Drag washers. You have two sides to the clutch:

1. The side that the fish runs with
2. The other side is you reeling him in.

The drag is design to slip with either of the two cases when drag force setting is not enough to keep the washers from slipping.
Let's say a fish takes your line and pulls 10 pound (measured from your line scale) and the drag slips. After you do the entire math(which i'm still working on), you will have "x" torque at the big gear on the drag stack.
Then the clutch or drag slips, but on the other side of the drag washers your handle does not move.

Using the Torque Method you Reverse The Whole Process

Spool is kept still while you make adjustments on the handle side shaft.

When you use the torque wrench, all your doing is measuring "x" torque, and making adjustments to the drag to match what a fish taking 10 pounds on the other side of the system.

Gear ratios on low profile baitcasters does affect the drag settings, but not much. See the initial information and real tests results on 3 different reels. See below attached.

The overall initial results yielded some general conclusions(some are obvious)
1. Ratios do effect the setting, generally 0.5 lbs of drag weight for each step up or down on the ratio (ex increase from 5:1 to 6:1-add 0.5 pounds total)
2. Drag adjustment is easier to fine tune with higher ratio than lower ratio. Multiple drag washers are also easier to adjust than single washer reels.
3. Multiple drag washers yielded more variations of weight when the drag slipped vs Single washer applications.
4. Generally you can use the same torque setting for all classes (ratios to complex to basic designs) of low profile reels that would yield about 0.5 pounds of variation.
5. Drag washer type (drag grease carbon fiber vs drag grease-cotton fiber) did not affect weights or settings. Under certain situations and conditions, the drag material type might handle differently over the other. Have not tested any of this yet.

I think after all this, the method will get you real close or more when you start the day. As the day drags on, other conditions will affect these numbers that may or not be controlled such as:
• Excessive line fray
• Line overlapping (braid, not as bad on mono, floro) itself inside the spool that will cause greater resistance (++ pounds added to your total weight)
• And the list can go on. Basically ANYTHING can happen where line breakage is not foreseen or controlled between the end of your lure (or fish) to the first surface of the drag washer. The one that got away.

Generally (based on these intial results) any variations in reel design, materials, drag greased, no drag grease, or water will not create a greater variation than doing the same test the same way, same setting, same reel with a line scale. There are too many uncontrollable factors that can create a higher percent of error. Plus the "System" has too many friction and resistive conditions that are not feasible to calculate. The idea here is to set them closer and easier to the drag weight you are after so you can fine tune your fishing experience. Sorry for the length.

Matt

[Alto Mare]

I usually like to set my drag to 1/3 of its max and let the fish tell me what to do. Your statistics are good but I don't see on how you could get them accurate. There are too many things to take into account: FISH, water condition, line and so on. I've also noticed lately that some reel manufacturers are showing gear ratio and how much line a reel retrieves in per crank. I'm still trying to figure that one out . If a reel takes in 36" of line per crank at full spool, how much line would it take in at half spool or 1/3 of the spool? Gear ratio goes hand and hand with line retrieve, it gives us a general idea, but that's about it. My 10/0 Senator has a 2:1 gear ratio and my 4/0 custom Senator has a 4:1 gear ratio, they both retrieve the same amount of line per crank, at full spool . Just my comment.

[BassMatt]

If a reel takes in 36" of line per crank at full spool, how much line would it take in at half spool or 1/3 of the spool? ............ My 10/0 Senator has a 2:1 gear ratio and my 4/0 custom Senator has a 4:1 gear ratio, they both retrieve the same amount of line per crank, at full spool.

Just rough without knowing anything specific about these two reels since I don't have one:
10/0
2:1 Ratio
36" Line at full spool

The spool OD is 146 mm
The spool ID (empty) is a wild guess at 65 mm without putting a Caliper on it, just using it as an example:
100%=36" Line
50% (thickness of spool-not the amount of total line)=25"
33%=23"

The 4/0 reel is the same line retrieve; half ratio, half the spool OD, the 50% and 33% are the same retrieve for both reels.
Send me the spool ID empty and I can tell you for sure.

MM

[Dominick]

I usually like to set my drag to 1/3 of its max and let the fish tell me what to do. Your statistics are good but I don't see on how you could get them accurate. There are too many things to take into account: FISH, water condition, line and so on. I've also noticed lately that some reel manufacturers are showing gear ratio and how much line a reel retrieves in per crank. I'm still trying to figure that one out . If a reel takes in 36" of line per crank at full spool, how much line would it take in at half spool or 1/3 of the spool? Gear ratio goes hand and hand with line retrieve, it gives us a general idea, but that's about it. My 10/0 Senator has a 2:1 gear ratio and my 4/0 custom Senator has a 4:1 gear ratio, they both retrieve the same amount of line per crank, at full spool . Just my comment.

Sal:  I think you are missing Matt's point.  He too sets the drag to 1/3 the breaking strength of the line just like anyone else including me.  But instead of setting the drag and mounting it on a rod and getting out the drag scale to get to the 1/3 breaking strength, Matt is figuring out how to set the drag on the bench by using a torque wrench.  If Matt perfects this procedure we can set the drag right on the bench and pack the reel away for travel and know it is just about right on.  Of course all the other variables enter the picture, but Matt's idea might streamline the manner in which we initially set our drags.  Right now I pack my reels for travel with the drags loose.  When I set everything up I get out the drag scale to set the drags for the type of fishing I'll be doing.  Doing this is a drag (pun intended) so being able to do it easily is worth trying.  Dominick

[Alto Mare]

OK, I see what you're trying to do MM. Thanks for the explenation Dominick. About the line retrieve though, how can a manufacturers specify how much line a reel retrieves per crank when it changes constantly,that's the reason i compared the 10/0 with the 4/0. It all comes down to spool diameter ratio and where the line is sitting on the spool. It might just be me that doesn't get it.
Back to your topic MM, sorry for bringing it off track. Keep your ideas coming, I'm sure we will all benefit by them. Sal

[Irish Jigger]

I've also noticed lately that some reel manufacturers are showing gear ratio and how much line a reel retrieves in per crank. I'm still trying to figure that one out . If a reel takes in 36" of line per crank at full spool, how much line would it take in at half spool or 1/3 of the spool? Gear ratio goes hand and hand with line retrieve, it gives us a general idea, but that's about it.  Just my comment.

Fully agree Alto Mare.   Shimano quote line recovery for the Trinidad TN16 as 46" per crank. This would be impossible to achieve even if the line was wound round the outside flanges of the spool. In practice the actual recovery rate  is anywhere from 15" to 43" per crank. depending on how much line is on the spool.
Just another exaggerated and misleading quotation from the manufacturers of fishing tackle.