Setting Drag To Another Level-Torque Method

[BassMatt]

Sal, all of your comment are all part of the whole concept and needs to be considered.

I think the reel manufactures try to have a benchmark to compare to and they use the max spool as that mark. What they should do is give the min also, or "Range" Max to Min. That would be a whole lot more useful.

Or

iIf they are going to report their "max" drag at full spool, it should be at empty spool, because if you max the drag at full spool and drag slips, might as well throw your reel in the drink and give it up, because the reel is useless at that point and drag weights only get worse as the monster is taking line. They should do a better job of reporting that information.

On my reels, and would image most others, I fill the line up to about 80% of the calculated spool OD. The thing is, when you work down to the end of the line, the drag starts to increase more than most realize, over 50%. You do not know what that is unless you do the math and measure the spool.

Another great reason to start your drag off light in the beginning.

[SoCalAngler]

If I'm correct here would you not have to change the numbers you plug into this equation depending on the spools diameter? So if you take reels with varying spool diameters you need to measure or know the spools diameter and keep this handy when using this technique so you can set your drags right, right? What if you plug in a number incorrectly should you double check your math? IMO a spring scale makes the process much faster and easier.

Pesca you said "instead of setting the drag and mounting it on a rod and getting out the drag scale to get to the 1/3 breaking strength, Matt is figuring out how to set the drag on the bench" and " Right now I pack my reels for travel with the drags loose.  When I set everything up I get out the drag scale to set the drags for the type of fishing I'll be doing.  Doing this is a drag (pun intended) so being able to do it easily is worth trying". If you want to set your drags before hand on a bench you could still use a spring scale, I do this all the time.

This set it and forget it thing may work for some types of fishing, but on other types it is not really realistic. Like if your reels are subject to water from pouring rain, a lot of spray while in the rocket launchers or just a lot of pounding or vibration while on a boat. Also if you target large hard charging fish you may need to re calibrate every couple of fish or so.

This may be the best thing since sliced bread for some but for me I believe in KISS. If you can show me a easier, faster way without having to breakout the calculator and trying to remember where I put the list of my reels spools diameters I'm all ears.

Don't get me wrong I do like it when people think outside of the box because this is when most innovation happens. Good luck BassMatt and keep letting us know how this works for you.

[Dominick]

This set it and forget it thing may work for some types of fishing, but on other types it is not really realistic. Like if your reels are subject to water from pouring rain, a lot of spray while in the rocket launchers or just a lot of pounding or vibration while on a boat. Also if you target large hard charging fish you may need to re calibrate every couple of fish or so.

This may be the best thing since sliced bread for some but for me I believe in KISS. If you can show me a easier, faster way without having to breakout the calculator and trying to remember where I put the list of my reels spools diameters I'm all ears.

Don't get me wrong I do like it when people think outside of the box because this is when most innovation happens. Good luck BassMatt and keep letting us know how this works for you.

SoCal:  There is no argument here.  What Matt is bringing to the table is as KISS as you can get.  Take all the variables out of your mind.  No matter what you do the variables are going to be there.  Now think about what he is proposing.  Grab a wrench tighten a nut with the wrench until you reach the torque limit and you are done.  How's that for KISS ? Dominick

[BassMatt]

Well after looking and reviewing the math on all this I finally have come up with the method to do this the KISS way. Although this post might be long and lengthily, I have a lot to share. If you have been interested so far in this topic, keep reading. It may take some time for this to soak in.

I have this all summed up in a nice simple form that's very nice that will work with anyone and really help you adjust drags settings to a level that no one could do before without thinking about the other options available to set the drag, this Torque Method concept.

See the attached results for the math way vs. the test way. I used the reels I own and once I figured all the details out, I found some other specs of other reels to compare with (all thanks to Alan Tani for the info on the 20# reels post) The numbers all are very close to each other to use an "Avg" setting factor (16 in/lb in the example chart) for certain reel classes. I still plan to do a much simpler chart for those that might be interested in an avg number without knowing anything about the reel.

It seems so far, in my review, that most of the reel manufactures try to achieve a certain balance between what happens at the handle to what happens at the spool.  For those that like to know all the specifics for one type or each reel, you only need to know 3 things max.

I still have some more testing like rod guides and angles to see if that affects anything, but it's time to get into the meat and potatoes of this.

Only TWO pieces of info are needed to do this:
1.   REEL GEAR RATIO
2.   LINE RETRIEVE OR SPOOL OD (mm)

If you want to go real technical and really know the max drag at a setting, get:
3.   SPOOL ID (mm)- when empty to fine tune the results.

I can explain latter in another post.

Take the example from Sal in reply 25:

Using the Torque Method and setting his reel with 16 lb/in at the handle:
Senator 10/0
1.   2:1
2.   36"
His slipping drag weight (or line pull scale weight) at full spool is 2.79 lbs
If he can't fill his spool to 100% and only 80% it would be 3.49 lbs
If his spools empty and assuming his spool ID is 50% OD (I don't know that factor for sure) it would be 5.58 lbs

These values are probably not practical for his use, but I used 16 as an example to compare from the attached.

But
If he set it to say 100 lb/in on the handle, the results would be:
80% full spool=21.81 lbs
50% full spool= 34.89 lbs-Big jump at the end of the line.

His 4/0 will get the same exact results with the same settings, same method.

Irish Jigger on reply 29........Shimano TN 16 with 6.2 ratio is set with 100 lbs/in at handle:
Spool that retrieves  46".......13.65 lbs.
But at what he recommends at 43" of line per crank will yield 14.60 lbs drag weight
And at the bottom of the spool at 15" of line..........41.87 lbs

Are we getting the idea????

I know you got be asking how can this all be so simple.....Believe me I asked myself the same question, and after hours of getting too deep into the details, it clicked.

Let me say this though. After reviewing all the variables (washer material coefficients, drag washers wet or dry or lubed, drag washer pressures, torque forces on the drag, drag washer OD and ID, drag washer qty, etc, etc, etc)................Throw all those variables out of the mind because they are not affected in any way that you would normally want to achieve with a line scale.

The torque method is doing the EXACT same method as a line scale, with more options and detail, on the handle side vs. the line side.

With a line scale, you adjust your drag to slip for so many pounds of force.
With the Torque Method, you adjust your drag to slip for so many pounds of force

The only difference between the two is they all happen on the opposite sides of the drag washer that slips.

Actually the one thing that the reel has the greatest impact to flexing drag weights is the amount of line you have on the spool when empty. If you are like many, you normally check your drag weights with full spool of line. When you do this, you are setting your drag weight to the lowest level of drag resistance that the reel will offer for that drag setting. Actually for every inch of line you have coming off your reel; the drag force begins to multiply itself more and more the closer you get to the bottom of the reel.

After reviewing all this and let's say you want to set your reels to a drag weight that will slip say after the reel is 75% empty of line, how do you do that without taking all your line off and checking the weights (I guess you could, but what a pain and mess) That's how you can adjust it with the torque method on the other side of the reel.

Plus when you set drag weights with a line scale, you set it on the side of the reel gear that is the least efficient, possibly with more error in your setting. Set it on the handle side where the gear is more efficient and closer to the end results. Plus......that's the same side and system (of the reel) of the drag setting you adjust, which will be closer to the results you want.

I will get this worksheet cleaned up soon and attempt to get it posted. Also looking at some more details and thoughts.

Comments, complaints, questions, and anything else are welcome.....Matt Marquis

[Brendan]

     Matt is using the same reel, setting the drag at 75% of line breaking strength, and doing so to 4-16 rods. Rod # is based on an assumption. He is also Bass fishing which means no three hour pause at the bait barge to set up all of those rods for the five+ day trip. I think its great he is establishing SOP for his day on the water. I prefer going through guides of the rod I am going to fish with and a scale for fishing exotics but when I fish for Bass I do not use a scale. Twelve pound and under I have it loose enough to pull some line off and 15 and over I pretty much lock it up. The fish I break off usually break off just from turning their head in a rock. If I let them run around the structure they will break off anyway.
     As far as all of the other variables like spool diameter, line angle, line diameter, ect. ect. I'm not smart enough to account for all of those factors. I think that's why 33% of breaking strength is typical, kind of takes those factors into consideration.
I'm sure we have not heard the end of this topic.
Brendan.
     

[BassMatt]

Well, if I could post an excel file, I would but I can't.
But, see the attached what it looks like.

Send me a message if you want an electronic copy to review:
Matt

[Brendan]

Matt, took my first look at the spreadsheet. Very impressed, don't think I wont be trying it and testing it against a scale just to see if it works. I completely understand being ready for a one hour to one day trip in advance. It's just part of the ritual on multiple day trips to have a couple of beers and set up all of the gear. Then double check once you get close to the fishing grounds just in case you focused more on the beer. Good job, tight lines.
Brendan.

[Dominick]

Matt:  I looked at the PDF.  Good job of gathering the information.  While I support your unique idea as a Penn fan I cannot see cranking on a Penn screw on the handle with a torque wrench because of the shape of the screw.  On the other hand those persons with a nut holding on the handle should have no problems with the lower drag settings.  The problem that I see is cranking on a nut with 100lbs of torque, in order to get drags in the upper ranges one would risk stripping the threads on the nut.  Dominick

[BassMatt]

Thanks Guys

And funny you mention the max torque, because I was thinking that as the tables were being populated, but had not had a chance to look at it closely yet. I never really thought about maxing the threads on brass in the past because I typically use a nut driver type torque wrench and not a lever wrench, never have had a problem in the past. Looking at the max specs for fine thread brass hardware, an 8mm thread (sm reels) is about 116 lb/in and the bigger reels are at 10mm at max 212 lb/in. But does not figure in that most reel shafts are cut down, which makes max torque drop. Plus some handle nuts I have seen are not average in size, and do stress crack. (Did this once while tightening a nut on a reel after putting it back together long time ago before I did any of this)

On shaft handle adjusted torque knobs, I wonder if the star knob itself ever is torqued to higher rating that what we are trying to get to?, Still probably not a good comparison, plus it's also working on a shaft with full threads and diameter. Good point Dominick.

The worksheet I did can be used by reel specific or general use. It will automatically populate the table at the bottom according to the reel specs entered in the shaded boxes. MM

[Jimmer]

Don't know about being able to use a table to preset a drag for an unknown reel, but I think this torque method would be an easy way to reset a particular reel back to a known drag setting that had been set on a scale when a scale is not available. Hope I said that right and it makes sense - Jimmer

[BassMatt]

For those all interested,  everything is summed up in one form and report on the Torque Method (Refer to the orginal post for the PDF file with details and the report.) Thanks for the input and would have not done it without all your help!
Matt

[Dominick]

Matt:  great job.  I downloaded the report and it is very informative.  Dominick

[BassMatt]

Thanks Dominick!

Sort of off the topic, I found that digital bow scales (for archery) work real good for checking weight with the line scale method (OMP M100 Digital Bow Scale). They can tell you peak load (tale tell) and constant load too. Just two more of my cents in the topic!

[treidm]

OK, I see what you're trying to do MM. Thanks for the explenation Dominick. About the line retrieve though, how can a manufacturers specify how much line a reel retrieves per crank when it changes constantly,that's the reason i compared the 10/0 with the 4/0. It all comes down to spool diameter ratio and where the line is sitting on the spool. It might just be me that doesn't get it.
Back to your topic MM, sorry for bringing it off track. Keep your ideas coming, I'm sure we will all benefit by them. Sal

The way I do it, is it is on the average spool diameter

example reel specs:
2.8:1 ratio
20 inches per turn

Formula:
[Pi = 3.14]
Line per crank / (Gear Ratio x 3.14) = Average spool diameter (Inches)
So in this example
20 / (2.8 x 3.14) = Average spool diameter (Inches)
20 / 8.792 = 2.2748" Average spool diameter

So it will vary, but it's the average
______________________________

For spool capacities I'm trying a TCF (total capacity factor)
To try & know capacities for different diameters on a given spool & figure backing or top shots

example spool capacity specs:
spool capacity (0.55mm/320m) converted to inches/yards = 0.021653543307/349.95625547

1st Formula:
Line capacity (Yards) x Line diameter (Inches) = TCF (Yard-Inches)
So this example
0.021653543307 x 349.95625547 = 7.577792933 TCF

So by using rounded TCF of 7.5778 for capacity of spool

Different line diameter example = 0.018"
2nd Formula:
TCF (7.5778) / New line diameter (0.018") = New capacity
7.5778 / 0.018 = 421 Yards of different line
...................

Say you want 30# mono backing (but don't know how much) with 100 yard 50# braid topshot
example, 30# is 0.022" & 50# is 0.014"

First figure the braid TCF
100 yd x 0.014 diameter = 1.4 TCF

Remember the TCF of spool was 7.5778
So subtract the braid TCF from the Spool TCF
7.5778 - 1.4 = 6.1778 mono TCF

So using 2nd Formula, plugging in mono TCF....
Mono TCF (6.1778) / 30# mono diameter (0.022") = mono needed
6.1778 / 0.022 = 280.81 yd

Now load 281 yd of your 30# mono & then you will have the room for your 100 yd 50# braid topshot?

....Reid

edit grammar/spelling

[wallacewt]

welcome treidm