Versa Drag System ?

[alantani]

so why not choose more useful?

exactly.  why not choose more drag surface area?

[Tiddlerbasher]

Which is exactly what versa drag does - more surface area for a given stack height.

[Mic]

Which is exactly what versa drag does - more surface area for a given stack height.

But is it more surface area for a given drag stack height if the two different surface areas are not in contact when suppressed ?

You know, I'm just learning here, but wouldn't it be a better drag system with different grades of CF washers and different thicknesses of eared/keyed washer of a different material ?

Do CF washers come in veering degrees like sand paper ? 80, 100, 200, 600 and so on ?

Steel, SS, copper, aluminum, brass all have a natural negative reaction to moisture and air, and all at different degrees of corrosion or tarnishing. all have different degrees of hardness as well. Has anyone manufacture ever applied an electro magnet drag system ? Be the first reel in history that needed a battery !

But it all boils down to the coefficient of resistance (drag) against said surface areas when force is applied. Is more drag or drag options better when your only options are drag on, drag off ?

[oldmanjoe]

 This is my version of " versa drag "      I can mix and match  4 different frictions material .
 I can put as many as 8 steel and 8 frictions or less by changing my drag nut ,   3  different hat lengths.
The base friction can be change "under spool" and i can change the diameter of the base friction.

 There is a lot of things in that article i  disagree with , but i wish i had that test equipment .
   

[Tiddlerbasher]

Quote:
But is it more surface area for a given drag stack height if the two different surface areas are not in contact when suppressed ?

Not quite sure what you mean but I'll give it a go.

Each cf washer has two friction surfaces (except the first washer at the bottom of the stack - it has only one functional surface). Because the cf is locked to the gear it can't move relative to the gear. The keyed metal washers, either side of the cf, are locked to the gear sleeve. When drag is applied the dog locks the sleeve. The gear is driven by the spool rotating against the drag. So the gear, with cf washers, rotates. The cf washers are now rotating against the keyed metal washers. Both surfaces, of the cf, are brought into play (except for the bottom cf) because they are sandwiched between metal washers keyed to the sleeve.

Adam, of Motive Fab, makes a similar system as an insert for conventional gears. I wonder if he has any diagrams, facts and figures that would help clarify things?

[oldmanjoe]

 What i wounder is can the carbon fiber washer ears stand a full or near full lock up , without shearing off ?
The stem is the only means of heat displacement -sink ?

[Tiddlerbasher]

IIRC Sal did some experiments with Adam's insert kit. I don't remeber the figures, but i'm sure it was something north of 60lbs drag on a custom 113
How much drag can you handle

[oldmanjoe]

 

[Mic]

Quote:
But is it more surface area for a given drag stack height if the two different surface areas are not in contact when suppressed ?

Not quite sure what you mean but I'll give it a go.

Each cf washer has two friction surfaces (except the first washer at the bottom of the stack - it has only one functional surface). Because the cf is locked to the gear it can't move relative to the gear. The keyed metal washers, either side of the cf, are locked to the gear sleeve. When drag is applied the dog locks the sleeve. The gear is driven by the spool rotating against the drag. So the gear, with cf washers, rotates. The cf washers are now rotating against the keyed metal washers. Both surfaces, of the cf, are brought into play (except for the bottom cf) because they are sandwiched between metal washers keyed to the sleeve.

Adam, of Motive Fab, makes a similar system as an insert for conventional gears. I wonder if he has any diagrams, facts and figures that would help clarify things?

Okay,
So things are getting a bit clearing with the understanding, but it appears to lead to more questions.

Surface area and applied pressure for a given stack height. Got it. But in looking at different drag stacks. It would appear that the correct stack always has one more keyed washer than eared washer. If were chasing service area, the keyed washer has less service area than the eared washer.

Would we not want one more eared washer vs. one more keyed and still keep the odd number ? 3 Eared washers w/ 2 Keyed washers opposite of the current HT-100 Kit ?

Now I'm really scratching my bald #### head !!!!!!!!!

Mic

[redsetta]

Just to reiterate jurelometer's ever-illuminating words re: surface area, lest we head back down that rabbit hole again:

"...drag surface area does not change the amount of friction for a given clamping load."

and

Each pair of surfaces that slide against each other adds to the total amount of frictional force for the same clamping load.

So it's the 'multiple' of surfaces, rather than the 'singular' surface area per se.
I love this stuff - it's absolutely fascinating and utterly confounding in equal measure!  
Great thread lads.
Cheers, Justin

[Mic]

Just to reiterate jurelometer's ever-illuminating words re: surface area, lest we head back down that rabbit hole again:

"...drag surface area does not change the amount of friction for a given clamping load."

and

Each pair of surfaces that slide against each other adds to the total amount of frictional force for the same clamping load.

So it's the 'multiple' of surfaces, rather than the 'singular' surface area per se.
I love this stuff - it's absolutely fascinating and utterly confounding in equal measure!  
Great thread lads.
Cheers, Justin

  Point or points taken Sir,
  Two surface area(s) per washer face

Thank you Justin

Mic

[MarkT]

so why not choose more useful?

exactly.  why not choose more drag surface area?

Yep, nobody says you have to crank it down as far as you can.  Even the Versa Drag in the heavy configuration (stock) can be fished light if you wanted to.

[jurelometer]

It's good to know that the traditional drag configuration (keyed, fiber, eared, fiber) is safe and the problems remain the same: the drag is too sticky and the adjustment range from zero to lock down is too small.  I wonder if the two problems are related.  If there was a larger adjustment range from zero to lock down could you use the fine control over clamping pressure to reduce or avoid the stickiness?

No.  Increasing clamping  pressure leads to stickiness.  If you need more clamping pressure for the same amount of drag it probably will be stickier.

If you want fine tuning, the better design is finer drag knob threads without reducing the number of sliding surfaces. For reasons mentioned in my previous post, I think we generally overvalue the usefulness of fine tuning.

What i wounder is can the carbon fiber washer ears stand a full or near full lock up , without shearing off ?
The stem is the only means of heat displacement -sink ?

It depends on now thick the drag washers are.  The washer have a resin impregnated solid core, only the surfaces are dry. Stock eared fiber washers are pretty thick.   The aftermarket custom stacks do use thinner eared fiber washers in order to get more sliding surfaces in the stack, but this is offset by each washer bearing less of the total load.  

The posts that show testing of these custom stacks until the point of failure do show ear damage, But most reels ar not designed to handle this much drag anyways.  The folks that make these stacks have told us that as  long as you fish these reels with a reasonably sane drag setting, you will get smoother drags from the reduced clamping force, meaning that the reel should have a higher maximum reliable useful (non sticky) drag than the stock setup.

Which is exactly what versa drag does - more surface area for a given stack height.

I think we are talking about two different things here.   There are other reels with eared drag washers/keyed metal washers - agree that this provides the maximum amount of sliding surfaces for a set of washers.   Penn's claim on the Versa Drag is that there is benefit by simply rearranging the washers to change the number of sliding surfaces.  Several of us  don't see much benefit in reducing the number of sliding surfaces for the reasons listed in this thread.

Just to reiterate jurelometer's ever-illuminating words re: surface area, lest we head back down that rabbit hole again:

"...drag surface area does not change the amount of friction for a given clamping load."

and

Each pair of surfaces that slide against each other adds to the total amount of frictional force for the same clamping load.

So it's the 'multiple' of surfaces, rather than the 'singular' surface area per se.
I love this stuff - it's absolutely fascinating and utterly confounding in equal measure!  
Great thread lads.
Cheers, Justin

Backtracking a tiny bit, with some swollen head reduction:  

If you make the hole in the center of the washer larger, the surface area decreases, but the average braking distance per revolution of the drag surfaces increase, meaning that more motion is converted to heat per revolution.  In this case a smaller surface area actual leads to more stopping work per revolution.   So messing with diameter will affect max drag, but not because of the change in surface area.

As you and Tiddlebasher noted, tribology is weird stuff

-J

[day0ne]

I think you are all overthinking this. There are situations, such as fishing for king mackerel, where a low amount of maximum drag is desirable. With the Versa drag, you can limit the maximum drag available without buying a special reel such as an Accurate Lite Line Special. This makes the reel more versatile.

[jurelometer]

I think you are all overthinking this. There are situations, such as fishing for king mackerel, where a low amount of maximum drag is desirable. With the Versa drag, you can limit the maximum drag available without buying a special reel such as an Accurate Lite Line Special. This makes the reel more versatile.

Overthinking is why we come here 

With a lever drag, you need to choose reel with a cam that has  a specific drag range.  But the Versa Drag is a star drag system.  Just use the max configuration.   If you want a lower drag, just don't turn the star as many times.   If you want to use the same reel for another purpose requiring higher drag, you don't have to take it apart to rearrange the washers.  And the drag will be smoother, even at lower settings.  This makes the reel more versatile without a screwdriver and a wrench 

-J