Versa Drag System ?

[oldmanjoe]

        If you ever did a brake job on a car and the rotors were turned , they are some what rough , but 3 days later they glass smooth .   

[oldmanjoe]

   Some drag stacks have cup washers on top to act as springs , the ones that people want to know which way to install them .  < >   > <.
   What if they were in the middle of the stack with friction in between them ?

[Wolli]

There is a more simple (cheaper) way to increase the drag in star drag reels.

Glue cf washers under the metal washers with square hole. Its the same effect with washers with ears. They can not rotate between the metal washers.
My test with a 114H was as foll: original ex works cofiguration max drag 5kg from full spool. With three glued on cf washers resulted in 17kg. More than required....
The avantage is no need to buy a new main and pinion gear and cf washers with ears. Test it and let us know your results.

[Mic]

There is a more simple (cheaper) way to increase the drag in star drag reels.

Glue cf washers under the metal washers with square hole. Its the same effect with washers with ears. They can not rotate between the metal washers.
My test with a 114H was as foll: original ex works cofiguration max drag 5kg from full spool. With three glued on cf washers resulted in 17kg. More than required....
The avantage is no need to buy a new main and pinion gear and cf washers with ears. Test it and let us know your results.

You just made my "over thinking" go into overdrive !

With one metal washer having a glued CF washer on it, interesting thought to say the least. Would having same said metal washer with a CF glued on both sides of it provide better friction with less jerking in the drag ?

Mic

[SteveL]

There is a more simple (cheaper) way to increase the drag in star drag reels.

Glue cf washers under the metal washers with square hole. Its the same effect with washers with ears. They can not rotate between the metal washers.
My test with a 114H was as foll: original ex works cofiguration max drag 5kg from full spool. With three glued on cf washers resulted in 17kg. More than required....
The avantage is no need to buy a new main and pinion gear and cf washers with ears. Test it and let us know your results.

Gluing the washers to the metal washers makes no difference in the resulting drag.  Your drag stack has the same number of metal and carbon washers with or without glue, and each carbon washer still has only one sliding surface.  Carbon fiber washers do not rotate or slide freely between two metal washers.  One side will stick and the other will slide.  The glue simply determines in advance which side will stick and which side will slide.

The goal of the versa drag is to use thicker eared carbon fiber washers to replace the eared metal washers.  All but the first cf washer (sitting in the bottom of the gear) will have two active friction surfaces.  The first cf washer sitting in the gear need not be eared since it will have only one active friction surface.   For the rest, you only have slotted metal washers and eared carbon fiber washers, which should allow for a little space savings to allow for an extra cf washer or two.  

With versa drag, 1 standard cf washer + 2 eared cf washers = 5 standard cf washers in a drag stack.  If space allows for 1 or 2 more eared washers, you could have the equivalent of 7 or 9 standard cf washers in a stack.  More friction surfaces is what provides  the extra drag.   And for any equivalent drag setting, versa drag will have less clamping pressure than the standard drag stack,  which results in smoother drag.

[Tiddlerbasher]

By Jove I think he's got it

[alantani]

i always strive to increase drag surface area.  maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it.   

[day0ne]

i always strive to increase drag surface area.  maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it.   

As I stated earlier, it's for lite line fishing. It's so you can't add too much drag. It's not a West Coast thing.

[SteveL]

i always strive to increase drag surface area.  maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it.   

It is best to increase the mean effective radius of the drag surface and to increase the number of drag surfaces.  Increasing/Decreasing the drag surface area affects primarily the rate of wear of the drag surface without affecting the resulting drag.  

You can look at a standard cf drag washer in a gear -- typically nearly tight on the ID and about 1-2 mm short on the OD (loose in the gear, but nearly tight on the gear sleeve).  If you replace that washer with one that is nearly tight on gear (the OD) but the ID only goes to about half way between the gear and the driveshaft, you have reduced the drag surface area significantly while increasing the drag noticeably (by increasing the mean effective radius).  The wear rate of the drag washer will increase somewhat.

The versa drag washers work not by changing the mean effective radius of the drag surface but by increasing (doubling) the number of drag surfaces in play.  You can do both, by increasing the inner diameter on the versa drag washers.  By doubling the drag surfaces with versa drag, you also double the drag surface area, but area is not really a variable that affects the resulting drag (rate of wear, yes, but not the resulting drag.)

I just had a low profile baitcaster open.  It had carbon fiber washers about 1.25" diameter, but the inner diameter was about 1.06" diameter.  A little thin 3/16" wide ring of drag surface that minimizes surface area, maximizes drag, and maximizes the rate of wear.   Not the best design, but it works well until it doesn't and the worn out drag washers have to be replaced.

[Lunker Larry]

This is a pic of a Shimano 400 Tranx and a Curado 300. Minimal CF or Dartanium II, not sure, on the Curado yet only 4lbs drag difference 22 listed for Tranx and 18 for the Curado.
I'm not into all this stuff like you guys but I thought the drag in the 3 stack would be significantly more considering the drag washer surface area?

[Maxed Out]

 The versa drag setup in the 113mtl eliminates friction from one side of the bottom drag washer. Now I understand why Alan said versa drag was a step in the wrong direction

[SteveL]

This is a pic of a Shimano 400 Tranx and a Curado 300. Minimal CF or Dartanium II, not sure, on the Curado yet only 4lbs drag difference 22 listed for Tranx and 18 for the Curado.
I'm not into all this stuff like you guys but I thought the drag in the 3 stack would be significantly more considering the drag washer surface area?

The drag washers appear to be carbon fiber about the same OD and ID. (I like that ratio of OD to ID, much better for drag than taking the ID all the way down to the drive shaft).

I don't know what is going on with the Tranx.  Three drag washers should have nearly the 3 times the drag of a single washer.   I suspect that they had a max drag in mind to prevent damage to the reel and set up the star drag compression and spring washers to not exceed that max drag.  That said, there should be less compression on the 3 stack resulting in only slightly more max drag but much smoother drag compared to the single washer.

[SteveL]

The versa drag setup in the 113mtl eliminates friction from one side of the bottom drag washer. Now I understand why Alan said versa drag was a step in the wrong direction

That is not entirely accurate.  If you compare with a standard drag stack, each carbon fiber drag washer has only one side that contributes to drag.  In the versa drag setup all but the first contribute both sides as drag surfaces.  The first one can not contribute two sides, it just functions as a standard drag washer with one drag surface. Stating it eliminates friction from one side really should be restated as eliminating one side as a friction surface (i.e. drag surface).   You can't eliminate something that never existed and could not exist.

If you want to play with the drag stack to lighten the drag, you can.  But if you messed with a standard drag stack like that you'd have metal sliding on metal if you weren't careful how you stacked it.   But no mater how you stack the versa drag, you can't break it. 

[SteveL]

i always strive to increase drag surface area.  maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it.   

As I stated earlier, it's for lite line fishing. It's so you can't add too much drag. It's not a West Coast thing.

Years ago, Ed Asner was the guest host on SNL, and they did a skit where he was the chief engineer at a nuclear power plant, but about to retire.   His parting words were simply "Just remember, you can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor" and then he left.  His underlings separated into factions.  One argued that putting too much water in was bad so you have to limit the water.   The other argued that can't put too much in so any amount of water was not too much.  As this went on, they cut to Ed Asner reclined on a beach sipping a drink, while the woman next to him points and asks what's that.  He replies "A nuclear fireball.  Just remember you can't stare at a nuclear fireball too long" as he was leaving.   Puzzled, the woman continues staring at the the nuclear fireball.

I think the phrase "you can't add too much drag" neatly sums up fishermen, but as with the SNL sketch there are two opposing factions.

[SteveL]

i always strive to increase drag surface area.  maybe i'm missing something, but i see no reason to ever deliberately decrease it.   

Alan,

I think I see now.   I believe your chief complaint with versa drag is that people can swap around the washers in odd configurations, effectively dropping from the equivalent of a 7 stack to a 5 stack, 3 stack or 1 stack.   This may be the reduction of drag surface area you mention, while for me it is a reduction of drag surfaces (area not being a factor here).

Within limits I don't have a big problem with some people wanting lighter drag, but this would probably be best handled by adjusting the star drag, changing the spring washers or at most removing (not rearranging) one drag washer so that the star drag gives less compressive force.