Versa Drag System ?

[Mic]

  Alright, so right off the top of the beer mug, I don't know Shinola about the different drag systems of these different reel manufactures. I am learning. Geared/Eared/Keyed and never an even number. While reading the post about the Sealine 30H from Daiwa, I seen this mentioned about Versa Drag Style Setup.

Can anyone tell me what versa drag style is or means ?

....."
Re: Daiwa Sealine 30H

« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 04:08:06 AM »
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gstours,adding one more washer will not give you more drag. Drag setups have to be odd numbers of drags so you would have to add 2 CF washers & 1 keyed washer & 1 eared washer  to have the odd number stack. Stacks have to be odd numbers 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. & the last eared washer must be in the gear to work unless you are using a Versa Drag style setup......"

Thanks you for your contribution to my education

Mic

[alantani]

that was more of a penn thing that never made sense to me.  all the time that we were trying to increase the functional amount of drag surface area, penn came along with a system that decreased it.  totally made no sense to me.  i never heard that daiwa did something similar.  i would hope not.   

[Rancanfish]

Alan,  are you speaking specifically of the Versa drag?  Like the Penn Mag 525?  If so I completely missed this discussion. Can you explain how the drag decreased with what I think is more surface?

I fix 'em, but lack in theory.

[Tiddlerbasher]

You practically double the working surface area with the 'Versa Drag' system. 'Standard' drag layout means only one side of a drag washer will apply drag - the other side basically sticks to the eared or keyed washer. Keying the cf drag washers to the gear and using only keyed metal washers ensures both sides of the cf will provide friction.

[philaroman]

interesting...  you're saying that CF+eared metal+CF sticks together & essentially acts as a unit,
providing useful friction mostly on the two "outer" surfaces that come in contact w/ keyed washers

is that gospel or debatable?  is it true for all drag materials, or just CF?
is that a high-drag phenomenon, or does it apply to lighter settings on small spinners w/ 6-stacks?

thks

[oldmanjoe]

  Let me throw some gasoline in the fire , and there is two more articles in the right side bar also . http://tocatchafish.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

[oc1]

It will take me some time to digest that one, but thank you very much.

I always figured conventional drag washers were just taking the path of least resistance.

Doing without a drag and using your thumb to control the reel is enlightening and lends credence to what he says about speed and heat build-up.

[Maxed Out]

 The 113MTL has the "Versa Drag" system. A mostly unknown fact about Versa Drag is the drag stack is made to reconfigure according to your needs. The 113mtl supposedly has 28# of max drag

[jurelometer]

The fewer the functional drag surfaces, the more clamping force is required  per pound of drag. This means that theoretically, with the lighter drag configuration, you can "micro-tune" the drag setting more easily (more star turns per lb of drag).

BUT:

The greater the clamping force, the more irregularities and alignment issues will contribute additional static friction (sometimes incorrectly referred to as drag startup inertia), in other words, less drag surfaces means a more sticky drag for a given lb setting.

The most useful Versa Drag configuration for both high and low drag settings is to maximize the functional drag surfaces.  No Versa required, except for marketing purpose

  Let me throw some gasoline in the fire , and there is two more articles in the right side bar also . http://tocatchafish.blogspot.com/p/blog-page.html

This guy's theories have been discussed in a few other threads.  There is some accurate information mixed in with some (IMHO) inaccurate conclusions.  For example. while it is true that drag surface area does not change the amount of friction for a given clamping load (only the coefficient of friction matters),  the diameter does matter, as the greater the diameter, the more work per revolution (greater distance traveled).  Also, it is easier to manufacture a smooth long lasting drag system with a large surface area.  Another example, thermal expansion of the metal disks should NOT matter, as it  is minimal even at high temps,  only equivalent to a light bump of the star (I did the equations in one of the threads).

And so on.

He also had a patent for using Rulon for drag washers in a spinning reel, which might have influenced his theories.  It seems like you can get a patent for anything.    Mebbe I should apply for a patent for using right hand thread screws in fly reels

-J

[Tiddlerbasher]

I attempted to type a few explanations - but wasn't happy with how they read - Tribology is a very weird, and difficult to explain, science
Suffice to say (I hope) that more frictional surfaces (ala Versa Drag), for a given clamping force, will provide a smoother drag for OUR purposes.
It's late (for me).
Let me know J.

[Mic]

The 113MTL has the "Versa Drag" system. A mostly unknown fact about Versa Drag is the drag stack is made to reconfigure according to your needs. The 113mtl supposedly has 28# of max drag

Completely agree Sir,
It's late for me to....

Alright, so the versa drag system is basically a calculated theory that depending on where or how many steel spacers/washers you place between/against said carbon fiber washers, the versatile drag system is only dependent on the amount of carbon fiber surface in contact with steel washer surface at a given time under an adjustable amount (star drag) of pressure.

So, versa/versatile drag is a new configuration to the old rule of thumb of 5 pounds of drag for each fiber washer. The stack only changed what specific surface area was in contact with what other specific surface area but the "thickness" of the drag stack never changed. Just the configuration. Wouldn't one set of steel washer/fiber washer and a large spring spacer have accomplished the same thing ? In theory anyway ?

I did notice that in the attached diagram, there is/was no difference in the steel washers. Meaning eared or keyed are all the same and only the carbon fiber had ears to set in the main gear. But isn't the point of a drag system the resistance on the spool pressure drag versus the keyed washers drag pressure on the main gear/reel handle ?

  So, it's not a new system, it's just a new way to stack or configure the drag stack ?

It's getting later for me Fellers.

I'm going to bed.

Mic

[Swami805]

The eared CF washers act the same as a combination of an eared metal washers and a round CF washers so there's more friction surface for height of the drag stack of the tradtional eared keyed eared configuration

[Brewcrafter]

Lots of great information here!  And MIC, the diagram from Ted pretty much explains it if you think about it this way (and this pretty much holds true for the majority conventional star drags that I have ever come across): Ears = Gear.  Meaning that whatever something with ears on it (whether it is a metal washer or the CF washers in the diagram) MUST do whatever the gear is doing.  Keyed = Sleeve.  Anything that is keyed (like the metals in Ted's diagram, or like most CF washers in "traditional" drag setups) MUST do whatever the gear sleeve is doing.  Fish taking line while the handle is stationary?  That means the gear (and anything that has ears) is moving, and anything that is keyed is not.  For the Versa Drag diagram on the "light" setting, you can see that all of the eared washers are clumped together, so when a fish is taking drag they will all spin together, and the only friction surface will be the one where the last eared CF meets the first keyed metal - so very little total surface area.  By alternating the positions of the metal and eared CF, basically more moving and stationary surfaces are being brought into play; until you get to the "max drag" scenario on the end where there are alternating keyed metal (locked to the gear sleeve) and eared CF (locked to the gear) to gear the greatest surface area. 
With this "Versa Drag", my first thought is that it was a cool marketing ploy to reel geeks like as at that point in time.  But I can see a "semi" practical side to it (I say semi because if it was totally practical they would probably still be built this way).  Here is my thought: any drag stack (I don't care if it is an Ultimate Upgrades 7 stack or a stock Penn Asbestos 3 stack from the 1970s) has two limits, uncompressed height and max compressed height.  Any function of drag strength is gong to be related to this (star reel backed all the way off - No drag!  Star reel cinched down to maximum tightness using a cheater pipe - Max Drag!)  With the Versa drag system, that uncompressed vs. compressed height would never change (it's always the same amount of material getting compressed) so you would always have about the same amount of turns from "No Drag" to "Cheater Pipe Max Drag".  Where the Versa drag "may" have had some engineering value - when in any setting, fully backed off is always "zero drag", but in the light setting, fully cranked down "cheater pipe tight" (I hope everyone knows I am joking about that) your maximum drag is going to be limited by the fact there is only ONE friction surface, that last interface between the eared washers that are spinning with the gear, and the keyed washers that are locked to the sleeve.  Let's just say for the sake of illustration that max drag in this case is 5#. 
Now let's say we follow Ted's diagram and change the arrangement of one of the washers - we now have more friction surfaces between eared washers (spinning with the gear) and keyed washers (locked to the sleeve).  So now we have 3 friction surfaces as opposed to the one earlier (I wish I could diagram that - I am not that good) where eared washers and keyed washers will be sliding against each other when the gear is spinning with line going out but the handle and sleeve are stationary.  Your max drag at this point will be much higher (you have 3 times the surface area as opposed to the 5# configuration) so you will have higher friction, more drag potential.  And I will diagress here just to insert that just because you have 3 times the area you do NOT necessarily have 3X drag - that is beyond what I am trying to explain here BUT....let's pretend that maxed drag while "cheater pipe cinched down" in this arrangement is 15#.
The thing to keep in mind, is that the thickness of the drag stack (the number of turns of the drag star) from "zero drag" to "max drag cinched down" has not changed in these two different configerations - thus, under that "light" setting it would take a certain amount of turns of the star to go from zero 5#, but under the higher setting you would be using the same amount of turns to cover a much higher drag range (hence much less finesse control).  That is the one thing that does seem kind of cool about this setup; but again, I'm not sure of "real world" practicality.  For most of us if we need a reel with 5# max drag...we buy a smaller reel.  Okay, now line capacity comes into play...I'm gonna stop here...I'm probably banned from the forum at this point  - john

[jurelometer]

The 113MTL has the "Versa Drag" system. A mostly unknown fact about Versa Drag is the drag stack is made to reconfigure according to your needs. The 113mtl supposedly has 28# of max drag

Completely agree Sir,
It's late for me to....

Alright, so the versa drag system is basically a calculated theory that depending on where or how many steel spacers/washers you place between/against said carbon fiber washers, the versatile drag system is only dependent on the amount of carbon fiber surface in contact with steel washer surface at a given time under an adjustable amount (star drag) of pressure.

So, versa/versatile drag is a new configuration to the old rule of thumb of 5 pounds of drag for each fiber washer. The stack only changed what specific surface area was in contact with what other specific surface area but the "thickness" of the drag stack never changed. Just the configuration. Wouldn't one set of steel washer/fiber washer and a large spring spacer have accomplished the same thing ? In theory anyway ?

I did notice that in the attached diagram, there is/was no difference in the steel washers. Meaning eared or keyed are all the same and only the carbon fiber had ears to set in the main gear. But isn't the point of a drag system the resistance on the spool pressure drag versus the keyed washers drag pressure on the main gear/reel handle ?

  So, it's not a new system, it's just a new way to stack or configure the drag stack ?

It's getting later for me Fellers.

I'm going to bed.

Mic

Pretty darn close!

1.  The clamping load (from tightening the drag star) multiplied by the coefficient of friction (a constant that describes the smoothness of two surfaces that slide against each each other) gives you the force it takes to start moving (static friction) or keep moving (kinetic friction).   The closer the static COF to the dynamic COF, the smoother the drag (static will be higher).  A sticky drag is one that keeps rapidly  jumping back and forth from stopping and moving due to the large differences between static and dynamic COF.

2. Each pair of surfaces that slide against each other adds to the total amount of frictional force for the same clamping load.   The high drag configuration has more surfaces that slide against each other., and vice versa for the low drag configuration. So YES.   You can do the same or similar on another reel, providing there are enough washers, and the surfaces sliding against each other are one fiber and one metal.

3.  With less sliding surfaces of the light drag configuration, it takes more turns to reach the same load compared to the high drag configuration.  so it should be easier to more finely set to an exact drag setting.

4, Since a star drag reel is not a high tolerance device, adding clamping force tends to tweak things to be less flat and aligned, increasing  the difference between static and dynamic COF.   This means that we should expect the light drag configuration will be stickier than the high drag configuration when they are both set at the same level (e.g. 10 lbs of pull). 

5.  If you have a decent amount of line out while playing the fish,  the amount of pressure against the side of the line from current or fish changing direction will have a huge and often frequently varying effect on the force at the fish, even though you will not feel this on the reel.   So micro-tuning the drag does not really buy you much unless you are fishing a short line straight to the fish with no curve in the line. 

6.  Sticky drags are more likely to break the line, shake the hook free or wear a larger hole in the fishes mouth, wear on the reel, etc.  So minimizing stickiness is usually much more important that getting the drag setting just right. Nothing is more important in a drag than smoothness IMHO.

So just about every fisherman ends up being better off going with the configuration that is the smoothest in all situations, which should also be the highest drag configuration on a Versa Drag.  A Versa Drag gives you the choice between a more useful (smoother + higher max drag)  and less useful (fine tuning + less max drag) configuration, so why not choose more useful?

-J

[oc1]

It's good to know that the traditional drag configuration (keyed, fiber, eared, fiber) is safe and the problems remain the same: the drag is too sticky and the adjustment range from zero to lock down is too small.  I wonder if the two problems are related.  If there was a larger adjustment range from zero to lock down could you use the fine control over clamping pressure to reduce or avoid the stickiness?