1+7 Drag Stack in a 114H Senator

[George4741]

I've decided to double dog my 114H.  Because of the increased stress generated by the 1+7 drag, I want to go with both dogs engaging simultaneously.  However, it may lead to a problem.  I will point it out in the second photo.


Here is the sideplate dremeled out.


Here the dogs are engaging simultaneously.  Notice how the new dog isn't square with the gear sleeve cog.  Think it will be a problem?  I don't like it.


A photo of the 7-drag stack.  I mistakenly ordered only five #45C carbontex washers, instead of 7.  So, I used HT100's as the first and last washers in the drag stack.  It works.  


Here is the assembled 1+7 drag stack.

The second dog should be filed down to squarely engage the cog on the gear sleeve.  But then, if I'm not careful, both dogs may not engage simultaneously.  I would have to rotate the handle slightly beyond where the first dog engages to be sure that the second one does, too.  Follow me?  The angle of the second dog, in relation to the gear sleeve, is different.  Maybe I should just go with alternating dogs.  Your thoughts, anyone?

George  

[Alto Mare]

Great job on that plate George. I see what you mean about the dogs not engaging at the same time if you square it off, but it shouldn't be too bad. I have a 15-115 and a 15-114H in my 9/0, I believe it should also work on a 6/0, but I'm not 100% sure. Maybe you'll need to do a little shaving , but it should work.

[john2244]

Nice work George !! 

John

[Keta]

Nice work.

Try 2 brass 115 dogs and hand fit them with a file.  Shift the original dog far enough that you can get a better angle for the new dog.

[Robert Janssen]

Are you saying that you're also able to cut gear teeth?
Could you give me an idea on how much it would set me back, for you to cut me some ss gears for a 113H as you're showing on your last shot?

Mmhm. Yes, and usually for reels. I have a gear hobber i used for the Everol automatic prototypes, two-speed and three-speed conversions, reels for myself, and stuff like that. I don't use it much these days.
How much? Probably a lot. Some things i do just for fun or of a personal interest, but at a just-for-money level it is probably quite expensive.

You know, if I could make them out of steel and heat treat them for strength, I can deal with coating them with grease for rust prevention.

Maybe so, but such gears may require a second, post heat treatment grinding operation, which is something I am not equipped to do. Better alternative would be to use a stainless steel to begin with, possibly nitrided afterwards, or simply stay with the bronze or brass which has worked just fine for Penn for many years.

Wow, Doc, that is definately thinking outside of the box.  It also takes it out of the hands of us amateurs.      

Thanks, but I was never inside the box. Never will be.

Really though, this is something i was chatting with Kerry Stottlemeyer about maybe ten years ago, and i can't imagine that we were the first. A few years ago, Penn patented and implemented this idea in a few different reels.

So really, as said, someone ought to have a closer look at what combinations are available from Penn, like the parts from the Baja Special, Torque, Fathom, the Versa-Drag, Versa-Gear and whatever all else. Maybe you can put something together for yourself.

If I were to start manufacturing these? Weeell maybe. I'll think about it. I would also need to hash out some kind of easy deal with Penn for borrowing their IP, or vice versa.

.

[redsetta]

If I were to start manufacturing these? Weeell maybe. I'll think about it. I would also need to hash out some kind of easy deal with Penn for borrowing their IP, or vice versa.

If you're inclined Doc, please do...

[George4741]

Great job on that plate George. I see what you mean about the dogs not engaging at the same time if you square it off, but it shouldn't be too bad. I have a 15-115 and a 15-114H in my 9/0, I believe it should also work on a 6/0, but I'm not 100% sure. Maybe you'll need to do a little shaving , but it should work.

Nice work George !!  

John

Nice work.

Try 2 brass 115 dogs and hand fit them with a file.  Shift the original dog far enough that you can get a better angle for the new dog.

Thanks for the praise, guys.  However, I'm just a student at this.  We all know the real movers and shakers with the 2-dog concept.    

I have a 115 dog and I'll experiment with some different combinations.  We'll see....

[Keta]

or simply stay with the bronze or brass which has worked just fine for Penn for many years.

We are attempting to go beyond what these reels were designed for and gear stripping is one of the potential problems.
I'm not fond of SS for working surfaces due to gauling and would prefer bronze over SS, do you ever work with inconel?

[Bryan Young]

Here's my double dog.  Both dogs are SS from Lee and the gear sleeve is also SS from Alan.

I really believe that this will hold with on problem using one dog for 30# of drag.  We've locked down on 80# test with an extend 4/0 (113HLW) with no damage to the dogs.  So I opted for double alternating dogs to reduce on the handle backlash.  Now, the gears.

I only did one, but plan to do all 4 of my 6/0s in this manner once we can get gears cut.

[Keta]

It looks like the angle of the SS dogs needs to be changed a bit, if it's a problem the drawing can be altered easily.

[Irish Jigger]

Quick rub with the file and Bob's your uncle.

[Bryan Young]

It looks like the angle of the SS dogs needs to be changed a bit, if it's a problem the drawing can be altered easily.

I hit it with a file.  It's all good.  Thanks Lee.  Just snapped off a few shots before I cleaned up.

[Makule]

Since both the dogs and AR sprocket are made of SS, not having full contact on the second dog shouldn't be a problem since the SS is quite tough and reasonably hard (harder than brass).  Over time, and with a lot of use, it's possible that either the dog or sprocket (or both) will wear, but that will actually be good since the surfaces will work-harden and become even more resistant to wear.  If one side wears, the other will start to wear as well.  Eventually, they should both get to a point of becoming equal and stabilized.

My view is that the chance of breakage is essentially nil, and unacceptable wear is actually quite low since, in relative terms, we're talking about fairly low pressures applied to the dog and sprocket.  SS can handle quite a fairly high amount of pressure and I doubt that we're anywhere near a danger point.

[Alto Mare]

Nice Job Bryan! Now don't forget, you have one of these:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=injection%20mold%20plate%20from%20penn%20reels&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CG0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpennreels.com%2Fsites%2Fall%2Fthemes%2Fpenn%2Fimages%2Frepairbulletin1.pdf&ei=hSIHUPnpMOfe0gG7-OTdCA&usg=AFQjCNFCgrgC89sPMvm3g4Qt91AKwVamjQ
I never had a problem with them, I actually just put together a 114H, same as yours and one of my 113H's also has the same plates.
Personally, I'm not worried about bit, I actually like the way the left side bearing is sitting much better.

[Bryan Young]

Is that a warrantee replacement?