Which Old School Penn Reel Would You Modify?

Started by Crab Pot, September 09, 2022, 11:47:30 PM

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Shellbelly

Quote from: Crab Pot on September 17, 2022, 12:00:21 AMI will have to reread Dave's post a couple dozen times

I did...along with some other in-depth discussions.  I have to admit that my last post is a bit of a cop-out on the problem.

What I noticed is what wasn't being discussed in what I read so please hear me out. We are talking about stability under stress, right?  The mods are pushing the stress points to another spot with each improvement, solving one problem and finding another.

I have yet to see a role the yoke might play in possible improvements regarding pinion alignment.  The yoke-jack-eccentric assembly is arguably the "sloppiest" moving assembly in a Penn reel.  If the yoke could be modified to a little tighter tolerance within the pinion channel, would this make any relevant improvement?

"Little boy,  you can get glad in the same pants you just got mad in."  (My Momma)
"You shot it boy, you're gonna clean it and eat it".  (My Dad)

Gfish

The yoke... Yeah, never thought a that one.
I'd be interested in "harnessing our collective skills to design and build our own simpler/better reel".
But, like I said Dave, my thinking is limited. Usually I can id. a weakness and that's where it ends. I did try Sal's roller bearing-drag spacer idea for a 113H, but didn't have the skills to do anything other than put a hole in the side-plate to make it fit. I now have a drag spacer that rusts and prolly doesn't provide any real lateral support.
Never tweaked a reel on a fish though, I'm too darned careful and interested in seeing the critter. Takes patience sometimes.
In honor of Sal and his contributions, a "simpler/better reel" would be pretty cool thing.
Fishing tackle is an art form and all fish caught on the right tackle are"Gfish"!

jurelometer

#32
Quote from: Shellbelly on September 17, 2022, 06:30:23 AM
Quote from: Crab Pot on September 17, 2022, 12:00:21 AMI will have to reread Dave's post a couple dozen times

I did...along with some other in-depth discussions.  I have to admit that my last post is a bit of a cop-out on the problem.

What I noticed is what wasn't being discussed in what I read so please hear me out. We are talking about stability under stress, right?  The mods are pushing the stress points to another spot with each improvement, solving one problem and finding another.

I have yet to see a role the yoke might play in possible improvements regarding pinion alignment.  The yoke-jack-eccentric assembly is arguably the "sloppiest" moving assembly in a Penn reel.  If the yoke could be modified to a little tighter tolerance within the pinion channel, would this make any relevant improvement?



The pinion shaft is supported  on both ends, so the bulk of the misalignment is coming from the gear post getting levered out.  That small clearance in the pinion (like a loose fitting bushing) and the length of the pinion (one of the reasons why it is so long) means that a properly fitted pinion doesn't  angle very much.  So it seems unlikely that there would be much improvement without addressing the gear sleeve issue first.

Some reels put the pinion on an independent shaft, but that means that the pinion support is not as strong.

[correction - of course the yoke presses on the pinion- that is what makes the pinion tight to the spindle- See Mike's post below - aagrh-  Looks like I am not so smart after all :)The yoke is  supposed to not touch the pinion when in gear, so that it does not affect smoothness and add friction when winding.  Theoretically,  an entirely different eccentric system could be designed so that the yoke could provide radial support to the pinion from the outside.  It is an interesting idea.  But first you would have to have a well supported yoke that could still travel toward and away from the spool.  And then you would need join it with the pinion with a bearing or two. 

I can't immediately think of a way to do this that is not complicated, expensive and bulky, so I am not sure if there would be enough bang for the buck.  And there wouldn't be too many stock parts left,

Thanks for posting this.  I like it when folks think out of the box a bit. 

-J

PacRat

#33
Quote from: Shellbelly on September 17, 2022, 06:30:23 AMI have yet to see a role the yoke might play in possible improvements regarding pinion alignment.  The yoke-jack-eccentric assembly is arguably the "sloppiest" moving assembly in a Penn reel.  If the yoke could be modified to a little tighter tolerance within the pinion channel, would this make any relevant improvement?



This got discussed a little bit but I don't remember which topic it's in...possibly in a thread about 'free-spool'. The conversation was about how some of our custom hotrods don't free-spool as well as we think they should. Sal contributed his techniques for polishing the spool shafts and pinion bore as well as removing excess oil or grease from the shaft...which helps greatly.

I've made an observation that I call 'pinion tilt' which may be addressed by what you're saying about an improved yoke. But first let me digress to pinion tilt. The original 500 with bushings has a counter-bore on the outboard end of the pinion gear that fits neatly over the tip of the bushing. This keeps the pinion nicely aligned and centered on the spool shaft while in free-spool even though the eccentric jack and yoke are not perfectly square to the shaft. This is why you can get real good free-spool from a stock 500 without bearings.

Now look at custom side plates with bearings. The pinions still have the counter-bore but there's nothing to support the pinion on the outboard end so the pinion gear will tilt with the yoke and lightly contact the spool shaft witch will cause friction and slow the rotation. You can spend hours tweaking and tuning your eccentric jack and yoke but you can't really ever eliminate the pinion tilt. I don't think this really detracts from performance unless you plan on casting pinhead anchovies. I only noticed it because of my troubleshooting routines. When building from scratch, I'll assemble a frame and spool without the bridge and gears, then I give it a few good spins and count the free-spool time. I also listen to the bearings and for any spool to frame contact. This way I can address those issues without guessing. Next, I install the drive-train and check it for fit and function, then give the spool some timed spins. Sal and I discussed this at length and decided that it was as good as it gets.

I think there's merit to what you are saying about the yoke. We first started using stainless yokes when we started using stainless gear-sets which were eating the yokes. A slightly thicker yoke would likely keep the pinion better squared up to the spool shaft and a little friction there would likely break-in and co away with use. The questions that need answering are; what is the manufacturing tolerance of the yoke groove in the pinion gears...and will it really add usable performance?

Jigmasters were designed to chuck iron so I'm not certain that little drag of the pinion on the shaft really matter except for when we're bragging about how much free-spool we've tuned into a reel.

Well, that my two cents worth anyway...
-Mike

mhc

#34
Quote from: PacRat on September 17, 2022, 09:09:33 PMI've made an observation that I call 'pinion tilt' which may be addressed by what you're saying about an improved yoke. But first let me digress to pinion tilt. The original 500 with bushings has a counter-bore on the outboard end of the pinion gear that fits neatly over the tip of the bushing. This keeps the pinion nicely aligned and centered on the spool shaft while in free-spool even though the eccentric jack and yoke are not perfectly square to the shaft. This is why you can get real good free-spool from a stock 500 without bearings.

Now look at custom side plates with bearings. The pinions still have the counter-bore but there's nothing to support the pinion on the outboard end so the pinion gear will tilt with the yoke and lightly contact the spool shaft witch will cause friction and slow the rotation. You can spend hours tweaking and tuning your eccentric jack and yoke but you can't really ever eliminate the pinion tilt.
I agree Mike - I think the squidder 13-140 pinion would be a better option for jigmasters with after market plates and bearings, if you're using a stock main gear. It's basically the same pinion without the bored recess for the bushing that would contact the shaft over the full length.
I brought it up a while ago but it didn't generate much interest  squidder and jigmaster pinions

Mike
It can't be too difficult - a lot of people do it.

steelfish

the 113h platform with the tons of aftermarket parts.

you can bet I love my 113HXN Tiburon xtra narrow kit

looks way narrower than another favorite reel, the Baja Special which is also modified
The Baja Guy

Finest Kind

I am really enjoying this blog. I just did a bunch of upgrades on a 140 squidder I got in a garage sale. I turned it into a 146 with bridges, aluminum spool, stainless gear sleeve, and Bryan Young's 5+1 drag upgrade and a fine thread star adjuster. I'm not looking for more drag, just finer adjustment. One thing I noticed when I took this reel apart initially is that the bridge and main gear are chromed or plated. Also the quality of the chroming on the reel in general seems to be done to a higher standard than what I am accustomed to. This is an old reel from the research I have been able to do on this site. Squidder is written straight on the side plate, old style dog spring, etc. Are the plated parts common? I haven't seen them in my fairly limited experience.IMG_5357.jpegIMG_5339.jpeg 

Bill B

Plated parts were common in the older reels.  You might check your bridge with a magnet.  I've found some 500's with stainless steel bridges.  Bill
It may not be very productive,
but it's sure going to be interesting!

Finest Kind

Thanks Bill, I really appreciate the information. I like this reel. I think it will be great for jigging striped bass and bluefish as well as bottom fishing.
John

Rancanfish

The explanations and examinations of our reel builds make for great info.

 But I have to say that I fished the original Penn jigmasters, squidders and later the 113h hard before I learned how to back off the drags and learn how to fish. It is well nigh impossible to break the darn things unless you abuse them. Add a Cortez Conversion bridge to a Baja and you are close to foolproof.

So my opinion is for the original poster. Build it for the joy and enjoyment of having great looking, tough reels that are better than when new. There is something gratifying about fishing the old dogs and knowing you built it. Your confidence in your reels will be boundless and so what if you run into a monster? If it breaks you can fix it again. You belong to the Ohana and that's why we are here.
I woke today and suddenly nothing happened.

Finest Kind

I agree. The old Penns are in a class by themselves in terms of durability, in my opinion. My first conventional, a 200 surfmaster, caught everything from striped bass to bluefin tuna to nine foot hammerhead sharks, no maintenance except squirting Penn oil into the little oil ports once a year.Never even rinsed it off.When it finally broke after twenty years I sent it back to Penn with a note "Please fix this reel if possible, I am not concerned how much it cost. It has caught a lot of big fish for me." I got the reel back a couple of weeks later, I don't even know what they changed inside, but also a new aluminum spool and a new handle. No charge!!! Now that's class!!!! I still have it, retired it a couple years ago after almost 50 years catching fish.

thorhammer

Quote from: Rancanfish on March 20, 2023, 06:03:55 AMThe explanations and examinations of our reel builds make for great info.

 But I have to say that I fished the original Penn jigmasters, squidders and later the 113h hard before I learned how to back off the drags and learn how to fish. It is well nigh impossible to break the darn things unless you abuse them. Add a Cortez Conversion bridge to a Baja and you are close to foolproof.

So my opinion is for the original poster. Build it for the joy and enjoyment of having great looking, tough reels that are better than when new. There is something gratifying about fishing the old dogs and knowing you built it. Your confidence in your reels will be boundless and so what if you run into a monster? If it breaks you can fix it again. You belong to the Ohana and that's why we are here.
\



Randy nailed it right there.

Shellbelly

Quote from: Rancanfish on March 20, 2023, 06:03:55 AMI learned how to back off the drags and learn how to fish.
....And that is when the fun shows up in catching fish.  If I have to take vise grips for drag adjustments, I'm not having fun.  That's like taking a knife to a gunfight.
"Little boy,  you can get glad in the same pants you just got mad in."  (My Momma)
"You shot it boy, you're gonna clean it and eat it".  (My Dad)

foakes

Quote from: Crab Pot on September 09, 2022, 11:47:30 PMSo I'm board and looking at all these Tiburon "turbo kits" to modify Ole School Peen reels.

I'm looking at the Squidder or Jigmaster but I'm not limited to those.

If you were to turbo an old Penn for 20-40 class fish, fly lining/yo-yo/surface iron, which would you choose?

If it were me, I would do (3) —- this would cover a lot of scenarios.

Jigmaster 500

Squidder 145

Senator 113H

Aluminum frames, upgraded CF & SS drag stacks, SS Sleeves, Power Handles, Aluminum Spools, rod clamps.

You could do a lot more —- but it's really not necessary.

Best, Fred

The Official, Un-Authorized Service and Restoration Center for quality vintage spinning reels.

D-A-M Quick, Penn, Mitchell, and ABU/Zebco Cardinals

--------

The first rule of fishing is to fish where the fish are. The second rule of fishing is to never forget the first rule.

"Enjoy the little things in Life — For someday, you may look back — and realize that they were the big things"
                                                     Fred O.

Dragalioun

In my humble opinion, most of them are worth modifying (depending on how you want to take it; small things such as drags for instance I'd do on basically any of them I want to try using) but to be more specific, reels like the Surfmasters, Jigmasters, and 113H (Most senator's are deserving but the 4/0 and 6/0 are in a really nice spot strength/size wise). I've personally been messing with a Surfmaster 100 which I may show around sometime soon (Haven't done much outside of minor polishing and star/drag changes but it's my baby) and consider it to be a very nice candidate! Good size, parts are pretty common and with some mods (Gear sleeve, drags, and maybe a handle upgrade) it can be a lot of fun as long as you dont need a fast line retrieve