Reel Repair by Alan Tani

I don't think so, except for drag washers of course.  Laying up carbon fiber is more challenging than just squirting a glob of paste into a mold. Any fiber lying on the surface has the potential to lift and become a wild hair so there would be extra finishing steps too.  It might be easier to make a carbon fiber billet or tube and mill it to size like they do with aluminum.

Graphite (as we're calling it) is not that much different from Bakelite.  They are both just a liquid resin with a thickening agent.  Bakelite side plates were phenolic resin thickened with wood powder.

Quote from: oc1 on November 04, 2024, 10:36:38 AMOK.  Chopped fiber, not powder.  As Wilmar insinuates, graphite in the fishing arena is not really graphite anyway.  Graphite is the stuff in your pencil.  Your graphite fishing rod or reel is made of carbon fiber.

Fron the fracture picture above, you can tell that there are no fibers of appreciable length involved.  If it was laid-up with carbon fiber cloth or tow instead of powder it could be made strong enough without increasing weight or mass. 

Reinforcing polymers with metal is a common practice, even in aviation and aerospace stuff.  They use metal mesh or strand; not big chunks of metal plate.

Yeah, that "graphite" naming had to come from a rod blank marketing guy way back in the day. Maybe they thought graphite sounded more exotic than carbon fiber.  But graphite is the  molecular  structure of carbon that you don't want to use for an engineering material.  Kinda shameful if you ask me.

If you are laying up with resin, long carbon fibers and cloth is an option, but once you switch to injection molding melted thermoplastics, not so much.  And good luck forming these complex shapes with a fiber cloth layout and resin.  So what about embedding a reinforcement layer in an injection molded part?

Insert injection molding is a complicated, exacting and expensive process if you are doing something more complicated than molding a plastic handle on a metal tool.

Injection molded plastic shrinks as it cools and solidifies in the mold. This shrinking has to be uniform or stresses will either ruin the part immediately, or get locked in leading to premature failure.  Plus you have to cut the mesh, load it in place and keep it in place while pressurized molten plastic is being forced through the cavity.

And the process still has to be very inexpensive, since that is the point of plastic frames. If the reel price start creeping up, folk will buy an aluminum reel or a competitor's plastic reel.

So hypothetically, could you use insert molding around a mesh to address this particular stress failure?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Can you do it without adding significant cost?.  Nope.

The simple answer is to design the frame for the materials being used instead of trying to make it look like it was made from aluminum.    Then the problem goes away.

I  will try to post an example of a proper plastic frame design.  I made  a couple frame prototypes posted here from  earlier projects, but some of the Newells are not bad.

-J

Here is a Newell frame with a design that better distributes the load, and uses the real seat cylinder itself as a structural component.   The  entire foot is Nylon, but when the reel is clamped, the foot ends are not under load. Plus no corrosion to worry about.

The clamp is not stock.  It is a (chopped) carbon fiber reinforced plastic job that I 3D printed.  I was playing with how thin I could make the clamp.  Fun stuff.

-J

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 04, 2024, 11:12:43 AMAre there any reel components being made of "real" carbon fiber?

That's not to say the shredded carbon in graphite is imaginary. But are there any components being made from epoxy-impregnated sheets of carbon that get vacuum molded or press-molded?

Quote from: oc1 on November 04, 2024, 06:33:45 PMI don't think so, except for drag washers of course.  Laying up carbon fiber is more challenging than just squirting a glob of paste into a mold. Any fiber lying on the surface has the potential to lift and become a wild hair so there would be extra finishing steps too.  It might be easier to make a carbon fiber billet or tube and mill it to size like they do with aluminum.

Graphite (as we're calling it) is not that much different from Bakelite.  They are both just a liquid resin with a thickening agent.  Bakelite side plates were phenolic resin thickened with wood powder.

There is a process that could be used, but hasn't been used on reels to my knowledge. It is called forged carbon fiber. 

Large chopped carbon strands/tape are mixed with epoxy to from a putty that is compressed in a die (equivalent to a mold but for pressure forming)  under a ton or so of pressure and then baked.  While not as strong as laying up layers of carbon fiber cloth, more complex shapes can be formed that are quite strong for their weight.  It is not super complicated, except that I think that you need a way to maintain compression while the part is oven curing, otherwise something that can be attempted with a bottle jack and a household style oven after machining the aluminum dies.  The dies are typically much simpler than inject molds.  I was tempted to try this myself a while ago, but didn't really have a project that needed it.

And to re-kick a dead horse that has already been beaten:  There is a big difference between thermoplastics (can repeatedly go back and forth between between liquid and solid based on temperature) and thermoset resins (goes from liquid to solid  one time only).  The "graphite" reel  parts are made from nylon - thermoplastic, while Bakelite is a thermoset.  Fibers can be blended in either, but the manufacturing process and design tradeoffs  are different.

BTW, older Bakelite products often used asbestos fibers.  No way to that I know of to tell if an old part was using the nasty type of asbestos.  Something to think about if you are inclined to grind on an old Bakelite sideplate.

-J

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 04, 2024, 11:12:43 AMAre there any reel components being made of "real" carbon fiber?

That's not to say the shredded carbon in graphite is imaginary. But are there any components being made from epoxy-impregnated sheets of carbon that get vacuum molded or press-molded?

Abu Garcia Eon Pro model, about twenty years ago.
Not sure about spinning reels. Seems like something that would have / could have happened.

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Quote from: Robert Janssen on November 04, 2024, 09:48:53 PM

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 04, 2024, 11:12:43 AMAre there any reel components being made of "real" carbon fiber?

That's not to say the shredded carbon in graphite is imaginary. But are there any components being made from epoxy-impregnated sheets of carbon that get vacuum molded or press-molded?

Abu Garcia Eon Pro model, about twenty years ago.
Not sure about spinning reels. Seems like something that would have / could have happened.

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Never heard of the Eon Pro until now.  Found some web references and a video.

What an interesting train wreck of a reel design!  Looks like it had a very short product life.

I can see ribs and ejector pin marks inside of the left sideplate, and along with the shape, it seems pretty clear to me that these sideplates are not constructed from carbon fiber weave, but are injection molded thermoplastic- i.e., "graphite". I did see one reference to "graphite and carbon fiber sideplates", but not in the official literature.  That exposed carbon fiber weave has to be just a cosmetic accent. 


-J

I would have thought so too, that was just some cf-look adhesive film or something, but i recall being surprised to find untrimmed cf filaments in mine.
I can look again later today.

Train wreck? Well no, I wouldn't say so. Some of the design elements are absolutely stellar.
However, as I understand it, the design phase was very rushed, and the from-concept-to-store-shelf timeline very short. This may make itself apparent in the execution.

Anyway, I'll look at the CF thing later.

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So yeah...
The sideplates appear to be of three sections: one black and shiny part, one plain weave CF part, and one black, sort of marbled / random CF part.

Inside however, the sideplates appear to be of one piece of molded something, FRP maybe, albeit with a slight marbling, barely visible. (strangely, also the letter S written with a Sharpie) .

I did find one piece of something similar in size and shape to a chopped-off yarn of prepreg CF. So, I burned it, took a closer look, and tested electrical conductivity.
Yup, carbon fiber.

So, does the reel actually contain real carbon fiber? Yes it does. 

Are the sideplates wholly made of carbon fiber? Well, maybe, as a random fill FRP.

Is this carbon fiber enough to actually make some kind of difference in this application? I doubt it.

I think f-15 NItron.

"Carbon fibre" has some marketing advantages, so I'm guessing the fact there is not a reel with a true carbon fibre frame must mean it's not economic to produce one. 

But in all fairness, it does seem the consumer is well covered by today's manufacturers.  If you want to use a small reel for light to medium work the plastic frames will be fine for that; if you want to use heavy line on them and fish it hard, there are now plenty of aluminium frame options. 

Quote from: thorhammer on November 05, 2024, 03:14:50 PMI think f-15 NItron.

Paint job or a faux carbon topping.  Carbon fibers are too stiff to stretch much at all.  The cloth can flex to follow a simple single radius if it is not too right, but not follow a small compound shape that curves in multiple directions with a single piece of cloth.  This is what Steve was referring earlier. Carbon fiber is a bear to work with, even more if you want a showy cosmetic surface. 

Note that Akios doesn't mention carbon fiber anywhere.

Photo capture of the inside of the sideplate shows telltale signs of being injection molded. See below.


Inside of Akios F-15 sideplate,

Now back to the ABU Eon:

Quote from: Robert Janssen on November 05, 2024, 07:59:33 AMTrain wreck? Well no, I wouldn't say so. Some of the design elements are absolutely stellar.
However, as I understand it, the design phase was very rushed, and the from-concept-to-store-shelf timeline very short. This may make itself apparent in the execution. 

Well, train wrecks can be magnificent in their own right.  And the more innovative you get, the greater the odds of failure. So I made that comment with a touch of admiration. Those ABU guys tried some innovation.

I assume that that giant round disk on the outside of the sideplate is housing the planetary gear system, which requires  way too much real estate to achieve a 6:1 gear ratio and larger drag disk diameter.  This planetary system also makes it difficult to have a well supported handle shaft.  So an interesting prototype, but not a good design tradeoff for a shipping product IMHO.

Thanks for sharing the Eon design.  I learned something new.


-J

My impression is they wanted to put planetary gears in something just because "planetary gears" sounds so cool.

The way to tame carbon fiber is to use a prepreg (pre-impregnated with resin) material.  That makes it malleable, like chewing a piece of paper to make a spitball.

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 04, 2024, 11:12:43 AMAre there any reel components being made of "real" carbon fiber?

That's not to say the shredded carbon in graphite is imaginary. But are there any components being made from epoxy-impregnated sheets of carbon that get vacuum molded or press-molded?

Yeah it's just not popular this side of the pacific. Most common is handles and drag stars.  Custom "tuning" shop companies in japan been offering CF parts for about 20ish years now

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 04, 2024, 11:12:43 AMAre there any reel components being made of "real" carbon fiber?

That's not to say the shredded carbon in graphite is imaginary. But are there any components being made from epoxy-impregnated sheets of carbon that get vacuum molded or press-molded?

Oh yeah and i also forgot the abu mgxtreme series which had CF handles and part of the rotor was carbon fiber as well

Quote from: Patudo on November 05, 2024, 06:19:08 PM"Carbon fibre" has some marketing advantages, so I'm guessing the fact there is not a reel with a true carbon fibre frame must mean it's not economic to produce one. 

But in all fairness, it does seem the consumer is well covered by today's manufacturers.  If you want to use a small reel for light to medium work the plastic frames will be fine for that; if you want to use heavy line on them and fish it hard, there are now plenty of aluminium frame options. 

Considering all the saltwater corrosion that we see on aluminum reels and the lack of alternatives in the higher quality/higher strength end of the market, I disagree  on whether the reel marketplace is well served today.

But I do agree that if CF was inexpensive and functional, we would probably see it out there by now.  My guess is that impact resistance is the problem.

Quote from: Hella Bread on November 12, 2024, 10:04:53 AM

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 04, 2024, 11:12:43 AMAre there any reel components being made of "real" carbon fiber?

That's not to say the shredded carbon in graphite is imaginary. But are there any components being made from epoxy-impregnated sheets of carbon that get vacuum molded or press-molded?

Yeah it's just not popular this side of the pacific. Most common is handles and drag stars.  Custom "tuning" shop companies in japan been offering CF parts for about 20ish years now

Quote from: Hella Bread on November 12, 2024, 10:19:50 AM

Quote from: JasonGotaProblem on November 04, 2024, 11:12:43 AMAre there any reel components being made of "real" carbon fiber?

That's not to say the shredded carbon in graphite is imaginary. But are there any components being made from epoxy-impregnated sheets of carbon that get vacuum molded or press-molded?

Oh yeah and i also forgot the abu mgxtreme series which had CF handles and part of the rotor was carbon fiber as well

Those flat-ish, simple geometry parts are the sort of things that are candidates for CF cloth/resin construction.

Hopefully I am not offending those that acquired these parts, but I am of the opinion that these are also not very good candidates for carbon fiber mesh.

Carbon fiber cloth composite is not as impact resistant as aluminum, so exposed parts like handle arms will tend to break when aluminum will just dent a little.  Mechanical attachments, especially for  motion (like a handle crank or spinner bail) are tricky to get right, as the openings create gaps in some filaments and concentrate load across others.  I see that the newer version of the high end ABU spinner got rid of the CF wings on the rotor and changed the CF handle arm to shaft attachment.

Drag stars only need to not break, not fail when tightening, and in larger reels, conduct and convect heat from the drag stack.  CF is not the best material for achieving any of these goals.

I am not sure a very modest reduction in overall weight is worth what is likely to be a reasonably significant loss in durability.

The high performance bicycle crowd is extremely interested in lightweight parts.  CF frame parts and handlebars seem to work for them (makes sense) but CF cranks suffer from durability issues around impact and mechanical connection stress failures (also makes sense). As redesigned CF cranks approach the durability of aluminum cranks, the lightness advantage disappears, but the added cost does not.  This makes for a limited market.

-J