Reel Repair by Alan Tani

Jim - File this under "John has NO good reason why this happens, but it does".  I use straight pull, and get all my gear preset weeks before I leave to go to landing.  On gear day on the boat, I always recheck - and 1 or 2 reels always seem to have a variance in the settings I had at home (arid desert vs humid tropical ocean).  As said - doesn't have to be "right on the money" as long as its close and you have a good idea of the range you are playing in. - john

"What is more strenuous for the fisherman; pointing the rod at the fish or holding the rod up at a 45 degree angle?"

Watch a person using slow pitch gear fight a larger fish, they use the reels power and not so much the rod.

Once a fish is hooked there is a lot of variables to deal with, set your drag at 1/4 to 1/3 of the rods rating (I do 1/3) and forget about it.  Use the drag lever to adjust the drag and the rod to keep tension on the fish.  The rod (and the rail/fulcrum)  and higher drag comes in play more when a larger tuna is in it's death spiral and the fight becomes more vertical. 

Obsessing over drag setting, once the baseline is set, is really a waste of time. 

As our resident engineer said above, the rod is a lever and the fulcrum changes all of the time, a softer rod bends more and reduces the mechanical advantage but they will allow a fish to more easily turn and go the wrong way. A shorter rod has advantages but on a LR boat a longer rod, 7.5-8.5 feet not 9-10 feet, is a better choice.

"This assumes the drag pressure is the same for both approaches.  I don't think I can hold the rod up with a constant 25-30 pound pull. and would probably get yanked off balance. If it's going to be a long battle, then don't use up your energy too early.
Use the rod to help insure you keep pressure on the fish at all times so it can't throw the hook."

Yup!

I have a bad knee on one leg, a bad ankle on the other, 3 bad disks in my lower back, I am in the mid 70's  and am packing about 25 pounds of extra lard but using the rail allows me to land fish easier, especially plus size fish.

This reel needs a line guide. Very unique design. How in the world do I get the cross bar out that the line guide moves on? Is it a press fit. One side has the ridges, and the other side is smooth.

Afraid to punch it out and bend the frame in the process. 

Quote from: oc1 on Today at 06:56:56 AMWhat is more strenuous for the fisherman; pointing the rod at the fish or holding the rod up at a 45 degree angle?  This assumes the drag pressure is the same for both approaches.  I don't think I can hold the rod up with a constant 25-30 pound pull. and would probably get yanked off balance. 

If it's going to be a long battle, then don't use up your energy too early .  Use the rod to help insure you keep pressure on the fish at all times so it can't throw the hook.

That is a different question than what to set the drag at.  But to answer you question, the rod is a lever with the leverage working against you. The closer to a 90 degree angle, the greater the effective lever length.  The amount will vary depending on the rod length, bend,  and hand grip location, but you will typically  have to use several times  of whatever force the fish is using to hold the rod up with just a 45 degree angle. As you get closer to pointing the tip at the fish, the effective lever length decreases to the point where you are at 1:1.

There are some useful reasons for different rod angles, but for simple pulling efficiency- straight line is the best.

-J

What is more strenuous for the fisherman; pointing the rod at the fish or holding the rod up at a 45 degree angle?  This assumes the drag pressure is the same for both approaches.  I don't think I can hold the rod up with a constant 25-30 pound pull. and would probably get yanked off balance. 

If it's going to be a long battle, then don't use up your energy too early .  Use the rod to help insure you keep pressure on the fish at all times so it can't throw the hook.

Quote from: Keta on Today at 04:31:25 AMThe only variable with my test this morning, other than using the rod, was line length.  Streight pull was 1' and 10' with the rod. Tomorrow I will re do it with the same amount of line out to eliminate that variable. I do not see 9'less line on the spool causing 2-3 pounds more drag.

The scale  is  still recording  max load, so you will still be just finding the static  drag number.  I think that is why you might be getting some variability based on rod angle.  But testing the kinetic (after startup)  drag is much more unwieldy, so I am not suggesting to do this as way to get "better" settings.  I am just noting the inaccuracies in the methodology in the video.

If you wanted to test if  rod angle affects drag when the fish is running, you would need to attach the scale to a moving object and observe the readings as you alternated between 45 degree and straight line.  You would also be finding what the drag is during a run, which is the most important part for this type of fishing.  Still not worth it IMHO.  There are some videos out there where they do drag testing on  fly reels with the line being pulled by a motorcycle.  Mildly interesting.

QuoteWe are not building rockets here and our drag settings are just a baseline.

Agree.  That was my main point. We need to be playing in the right ballpark, and a scale helps, but obsessing over getting a precise setting is not very helpful because of all the other variables besides your initial drag setting that affect the tension on the line in real life fishing when there is a significant amount of line out.

My advice would be to just pick either method and stick to it.  Straight line is easier, and you can also test without the reel on the rod.

If you are landing fish, but want to land them faster, try more drag. If you are breaking off fish, maybe try less drag or maybe try some new knots

-J

The only variable with my test this morning, other than using the rod, was line length.  Streight pull was 1' and 10' with the rod. Tomorrow I will re do it with the same amount of line out to eliminate that variable. I do not see 9'less line on the spool causing 2-3 pounds more drag.

Quote from: pjstevko on Today at 03:54:43 AMI do straight pull as well

We are not building rockets here and our drag settings are just a baseline.

Quote from: reelynew on Today at 03:05:13 AMMaybe the A-eye will finally expose the truth about the elusive metal-framed 440SS. Until then, I'm sticking with Sal's version of events.

Ask your friendly AI agent this question "Please expose the truth about the elusive metal-framed 440SS. Were there any ever made and sold to the public". 

After it provides you with its story, ask it to state all references for its work.  It will most likely be similar to this:

"The breakdown of the Penn Spinfisher 440SS history provided in our discussion does not draw from peer-reviewed scientific journals, academic texts, or formal research papers. Because of this, there are no academic citations or formal reference lists (such as APA, MLA, or BibTeX) to provide.

Instead, the information is synthesized from historical angling records, vintage tackle documentation, and the collective expertise of the vintage fishing community. ..."

And AI will go on to provide more information for its sources, one being ORCA.  From there, you'll have to determine your own conclusion. The AI search helpers are only a tool, not the source of truth or false information.

Always ask for references, it will be happy and proud to provide them.

I do straight pull as well

My take:  This guy is measuring static friction.  So none of this is valid during a run. I confess that I didn't watch the whole video- I saw enough stuff that made me scratch my head in the parts that I saw. That comment about trucks having lots of brakes but a reel only one or two... huh?

The rod angle won't matter during a steady run either.

First a bit on sliding friction.  A pair of surfaces will have two friction numbers associated with it.  The first is the static coefficient of friction (CoF). Multiply this by the force pressing the surfaces together, and you get the amount of force it takes to make the surfaces start sliding. Once the sliding starts, there is a second CoF for the same pair of surfaces.  This is called the kinetic CoF, and it will be lower than the static.  The better the drag materials, the less the difference is.

The scale used in the video records the maximum load, so it is collecting only the static drag number,  This will not tell you the drag on the reel during the run, which is going to be lower.

Now a bit on rod angle and drag.  In the video, the rod is being lifted (angle changing) while the measurement is being taken.  This is introducing the effect of a class 3 lever with the scale as the load point.  I think this will be a wash in the end, but if he is claiming that drag is different because of angle, he needs to hold the rod at a steady angle, and measure once the line has been moving for awhile.

But angle should not matter during a steady run.  Here is a test:  Hang a pulley from a rafter and string the  line though it.  Add a 10 lb (or whatever) weight to one end, and a scale to the other.  The scale will read the same when lifting it regardless of the angle you pull from.  So why would using a fishing rod for essentially the same test be any different?

One reason that I keep hearing is friction on the guides, but if you are requiring 3-4 lbs more force from guide friction, you would ne destroying the line.  Try this test: Tape the wheel on the pulley so it can't turn, and stick some 400 grit sandpaper in the track.  Now see what the scale reads to lift the same 10 lbs.

What I think is happening (and on this part , I am just speculating) is that static CoF is based on one kind of starting pull, but for some material pairs , a longer time pulling at a lighter load, or introducing elasticity into to the load (rod bending) will change the effective static CoF.  Or maybe it affects the accuracy of the scale.  But in the end, it doesn't really matter because you need to start the  measure after the drag is turning and stabilized.

And why none of this super- accurate drag setting really matters:

1. Unlike the sliding friction of solids, frictional force in a fluid is also a function of surface area.  How much line you have in the water and how much it is being pulled sideways, and how fast it is moving will have a tremendous difference on the amount of force the fish needs to apply to pull the same amount of drag.  This is why a big game boat will follow the direction of the line from the reel and not the direction of the fish, when trying to run down a big billfish.  You can have the drag set at next to nothing, and still end up with a breakoff if that boat starts pulling a "U" shape in the line.

2. The amount of line on the spool will affect the drag at the reel.  If the effective spool diameter is cut in half from line being taken, the drag will be doubled due to the loss of leverage.

3.  Line breaking strength will vary both from the nominal breaking strength and at usually drops occasionally at various points on the line (especially).  If one 100 lb braid breaks mostly at 120 lbs but another at 112, why are you  trying to get nail the exact same number for both?

4.  Drag material performance will change during a longer run.  Generally the CoF will decrease as the materials heat up.  If you are using drag grease, it happens sooner, as the decrease in viscosity affects the CoF.  (I still prefer greased drags).


In summary, if you are fighting large tuna from a drifting or anchored boat, your drag is going to vary wildly during the fight, and the load at the knort on the fishes end of the line is going to vary even more wildly when taking drag, and you don't really know how strong your line actually is.  There is some value in not adding to this variability by using some  super rough estimate of a  drag setting,  but I am not going to sweat it on whether my drag is "really" 20 or 22 lbs on 80 lb braid.

Now if I am trying to keep a grouper or yellowtail off the rocks in 60 feet of water, the range for these variables shrink, and I care a lot more about static drag, but in the end the variables still muddy things up- I can set at a much higher number, but it is a bit of a fools errand to try to be too accurate.

-J